Mixing Elbo Replacement

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jeffreyrankin
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Mixing Elbo Replacement

Hi,

Has anyone had the exhaust mixing elbo and associated gaskets, hoses, etc. replaced professionally? The yard I am working with explained that the teak cabinet in the aft cabin would need to be removed. It appears that all is accessible by removing the engine cover and aft access panels. They estimate 10 hours labor for the entire job, a $335 "machine shop welding fee", and approximately $200 in parts. Does this appear reasonable? The boat is a 1988.

Thank You,

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deising
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Welcome to the forum, Jeffrey. On my 1999 Mk II, the mixing elbow seems very accessible without modifying any joinery. We don't know what year your boat is.

I can't share any first-hand experience, but there is no way I would want to pay that kind of money for that job!

Hope someone else can give you better info.

Duane Ising - Past Commodore (2011-2012)
s/v Diva Di
1999 Catalina 36 Hull #1777
Std rig; wing keel, M35B, Delta (45#)
Punta Gorda, FL
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/diva-di/

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Steve Frost
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Jeffery,

My boat too is a 1988 serial 825, I have had the cabinet out a few times on mine. It is about the only way to get full access to the mixing elbow and coupling. The joinery is not a big deal there are about five screws on the starboard side that run from the cabinet top down to floor level. Remove those and the three screws on the far side oposite and the whole cabinet comes out pretty easily. I can now get this accessed in about ten minutes now that I know where each bit of hardware is.

The biggest part of the job is wrestling the exhaust elbow in place to line up with the inlet to the water lift muffler. My elbow was a Rube Goldberg concoction of two inch galvinized pipes and elbows. I understand Catalina also make a nice stainless elbow that I am sure would be preferable. It will require draining the coolant before you start, if everything comes apart smothly, I now could probably get this task done in four or five hours but, if the hardware is rusty and you run into any problems ten hours does not sound far off the mark. If you do it yourself and get it done in six, it will not be a pleasant task and it will feel like twelve.

The shop bidding this job has likely been there before, one frozen bolt in the exhaust manifold may take hours to wrestle free, if he bids the job at four to six hours and it takes him ten neither you or he will be happy. If he bids it at ten and it takes him four, he can bill you six and you are both happy.

Cepheus dream
C36 MK I # 825
MK I Tech Editor No Mas

jeffreyrankin
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Steve,

Thank you for the insight. by the way, mine is #826.

Best Regards

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Steve Frost
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Wow, I guess being consecutive serial numbers makes us brothers inlaw or something. Now I just need to find 824.

I did not see from your profile where you keep your boat.

Also would like to know what type of mixing elbow you have installed.

Steve

Cepheus dream
C36 MK I # 825
MK I Tech Editor No Mas

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Gary Teeter
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I just replaced the mixing elbow on my 1989, hull 966. I think is built the same yours. I had to remove the shelf in the back berth. It was not a big problem, but I put a slide bolt latch in the back to make future removal easier.

My mixing elbow failed while I was on a trip, and I replaced it with 1-1/4 inch black iron pipe fittings from a small town hardware store to finish the trip. When I got home I ordered the same fittings on line in 316SS. I used a Tee for the mixing elbow. The coolant feeds in through a barbed fitting into a 1/2 inch street ell that attaches to the tee with a 1/2 X 1-1/4 bushing.

One thing I would recommend is using a silicone "hump hose" to connect the mixing elbow to the muffler. These are available from Catalina Direct, and are much more flexible and easier to work with than standard exhaust hose.

Sorry, I don't have any pictures.

Gary Teeter
1989 C36 "Annie G"
Everett WA

Gary Teeter
1989 C36 "AnnieG"
Std Rig #966, M25xp
Everett, WA

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Steve Frost
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Gary,

I second your recomendation of using a hump hose, it offers much greater flexability.

I like the idea of using stainless pieces on the exhaust, mine is galvanized pipe, where did you find stainless and what was the cost. Lastly to further the info related to the start of this thread, how long did it take you to replace your assembly.

Steve

Cepheus dream
C36 MK I # 825
MK I Tech Editor No Mas

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stu jackson c34
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Steve, we got our SS riser replacement from Catalina Yachts a few years ago. It cost $183 in 2003, probably up to about $275 now. A local C34 skipper got his "homemade" at SF Boatworks for about the same price last month. You could probably have one made at the SS shop in Grand Marina. I second the hump hose.

How long a job? Depends on how lucky you are in getting the bottom nut off the stud underneath the exhaust manifold. When I had to rebed the riser (with a new gasket) onto the flange last year, it took a &^$@$%^&^ WEEK to get that nut off, using PB Blaster everyday. Just another excuse to go to the boat, daily! Once it's off, the rest of the work is easy and shouldn't take more than a couple of hours if by yourself, one if with help.

As for "professional" help...I must admit I find that phrase an oxymoron when it comes to boats. The ONLY work I ever had done on my boat was by a "qualified" mechanic who took my old riser off and installed the new one in 2003. He didn't put in the specified muffler patch paste on the flange threads, which caused blowby and made me have to remove the riser in 2008 to fix his screwup. He also installed a curved black hose to the muffler, in lieu of the hump hose I spec'd. It wore itself through quickly and I'm glad I checked his work.

Quite frankly, anybody who lets other people work on their boat is nuts because it's a safety issue. The more you learn about your boat, the safer you are.

Having said that, after my skiing accident last January I have developed a new sensitivity to phsycially challenged situations, and am much more 'Understanding' of folks who HAVE to have someone else work on their boats. However, there is no excuse for most of us to NOT do our own work. Anyone can learn how to use tools and take it a step at a time. Boards like this one, which explain HOW to do things, with information that just wasn't available even five or ten years ago, makes wonking out and "having the yard do it" a lame excuse. Most stories I hear are horror stories of shoddy and poorly done work. The backside is YOU do NOT get to know your engine and systems, end up with a big bill, and have to eventually fix it yourself.

We put off buying a big boat with a diesel engine because it was far easier to take our 7.5 HP Merc off our C25 and bring it in for servicing. Boy, I missed many years of more fun sailing on our "new" boat 'cuz of that. I was "a-feared" of diesels in 1998. Now I love my engine, because, being from here in California, "I have become one with my motor!"

Now that my leg is about 60% back to normal, last week I changed the diesel fuel filters, did an oil change and transmission fluid change. I also CAREFULLY INSPECTED my engine and found, GASP, a MAJOR crack in the alternator housing casting. NO, I repeat, NO "boat mechanic" would've caught that puppy, simply because "it ain't his boat!"

We have all learned so much from these kind of forums that unless there is a physical disability (believe me, I know) I see no reason to NOT learn how things work.

It makes you and your guests on board SAFER.

Stu Jackson, C34IA Secretary, C34 #224, 1986, SR/FK, M25 engine, Rocna 10 (22#)

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wfahey
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Good Post Stu

To back you up on the "Professional Mechanic" story. The local Sheriff's department slips their boat in a covered slip just down from [I]Lucky[/I]. They have been towed in the last 4 weekends for the same oil pressure issue. In each case the local marina mechanic has come out and worked on the boat, replaced parts and declared it fixed only to have it get towed back in the next weekend. There are many of us that will not let the marina touch our boats for just this reason.

Bill
s/v Lucky
1984 MK I Hull #266
San Antonio, Texas

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Steve Frost
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Bill,

You may want to give the profesional mechanic a break, there could be a perfectly good explination for this situation. He could be sleeping with the Sheriffs wife. Having him stuck out on the water could buy him some time.

Cepheus dream
C36 MK I # 825
MK I Tech Editor No Mas

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LCBrandt
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So what is a Hump Hose? And why is it important?

The Hump Hose is the preferred method of connecting the riser to the aqualift muffler. This type of hose has a unique characteristic - it is flexible *longitudinally*...that is, flexible when the hose is under compression lengthwise.

To appreciate it's benefit, you have to understand that your engine is a constantly moving object, with the bulk of it's motion being rotational about the crankshaft as propeller and throttle loads vary, and with the pulsation of each cylinder's firing being a major part of that motion. The muffler, on the other hand, is a fixed object, "screwed down for life" (to use the phrase from one of my favorite books, John Irving's "Hotel New Hampshire"). The function of the hose, any hose, in this position is to connect the engine riser to the muffler...one object in tremendous motion, the other tremendously solid. A normal black exhaust hose has no flexibility under compression, and while it completes the circuit for exhaust/water outflow, it acts also, basically, as a fifth engine mount. This isn't optimum. A hump hose makes this connection smoother, allowing normal engine motion, absolving the muffler from these high loads, with the benefits of longer life hose, longer life muffler, possibly longer life riser, much less vibration, and much reduced engine noise throughout the boat.

High Flight was delivered new with black exhaust hose in this application. I was amazed when I changed it to a hump hose. If you don't use a hump hose, get one. It's worth the exchange.

The photo below (a little blurry, but it was the only shot I had) shows the riser, hump hose and muffler on my boat.

Larry Brandt
S/V High Flight #2109
Pacific Northwest, PDX-based
2002 C-36 mkII SR/FK M35B
 

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Spanki
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MANY GREAT MECANICS HATE READING THESE!!!! Having worked my way through college as a mechsnic and machinist I could feel insulted by these past remarks, but I don't. I think the blame is more on the marina for hiring beginning mechanics and not suppervising or inspecting their work (too busy counting ther money). Many places start beginners at or near minimum wage but if they work on your boat they charge you for a professional. A professional mechanic should make $50.00 an hour but rarely do. I see hourly labor rates for marine mechanics here in east okla. at or above $90.00 an hour and top mechanics around here make less than $20.00!
All this I'v said leads up to the fact I do ALL my boat work (and way too much for friends--ya gotta help!). I think everyone should do their own work because, as stated earllier, we must know our boat and her systems.

Spanki & {Russ 12-8-1949/9-6-2010 R.I.P Butch}
s/v Spanki 1993 Catalina 36 #1224
"Don't worry, Be happy""Sail your life away"

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Steve Frost
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Well, I need to pipe up here. I am a mechanic or used to be, I have fifeteen that work for me. I think we need to define what a mechanic is.

I have the fortune of my boat being in an area rich with talented technicians, engine specialists, rigging specialists, electronics specialists and and severeral very well qualified yards with good reputations.

You speak of marinas hiring the unskilled, many marinas have a handy man jack of all trades, if this is what you refer to as a mechanic I would usualy stear clear, I would not consider this person a mechanic. I would also not let a gas station technician or tow truck driver work on my car, they see lots of broken ones that does not mean they know how to fix them.

I appreciate the thought that we should know our boat and systems but, there are a great many things I leave to a profesional. Some tasks require special tools that I do not care to invest in for a one time job. Many jobs are not that complex, I could do a bottom job on my boat but I do not want to. I could scrub my own bottom, but I do not want to, there are a great many things I could do but at some point I need to ask myself if maybe I could be money ahead doing the job I do best, running my business and leaving some of these tasks to the guy that does it day in and day out. I rebuilt my own engine, I could not afford a new one at the time, it was both a labor of love and of necessity. In hindsight I enjoyed it but, when looking at the big picture, I was working for far less than mimimum wage, though the boss did supply beer. I own a twenty five year old boat, it has a long to do list, my hobby is sailing not boat repair though I will continue to do many things myself.

In addition not everyone here will have the mechanical aptitude to tackle many projects on our boats. I myself would not try brain surgery or write a legal document, writting posts here challenges me enough. Understand that when you select a contractor, he is a businessman, he may quote a job at a taking more time than you think it should take but he must consider the variables, he can not loose money on every job.
If you constantly feel as if you are being gouged by a contractor, you have selected the wrong one. I trust the boat yard I deal with, yes there are times I think I could do it cheaper, then I consider the actual time I need to invest in the project including travel time or the non sailing time and I find they are charging far less than I pay myself per hour at work.

Cepheus dream
C36 MK I # 825
MK I Tech Editor No Mas

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wfahey
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[QUOTE=Steve Frost;2173]Bill,

You may want to give the profesional mechanic a break, there could be a perfectly good explination for this situation. He could be sleeping with the Sheriffs wife. Having him stuck out on the water could buy him some time.[/QUOTE]

Steve, I would have NEVER thought of that. :eek: Then 2 posts later I read that you used to be a mechanic. So now I have to wonder.....first hand knowledge? ;)

My dad was a mechanic so I learned from him. In his later years he was badly injured falling off of a crane arm replacing a hydraulic line. He would still have people bring their cars over to the house and yours truly would do the work under the watchful eyes of the "master".

Bill
s/v Lucky
1984 MK I Hull #266
San Antonio, Texas

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Steve Frost
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Bill, I stayed away from the Sheriff's wife.

Boy, this thread has grown some legs. Poor Jeff just asked a simple question about the price of replacing his exhaust elbow.

Isn't evolution great.

Cepheus dream
C36 MK I # 825
MK I Tech Editor No Mas

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deising
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ROFLMAO, Steve!

Duane Ising - Past Commodore (2011-2012)
s/v Diva Di
1999 Catalina 36 Hull #1777
Std rig; wing keel, M35B, Delta (45#)
Punta Gorda, FL
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/diva-di/

StillaThrill
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Jeff,

I wrote an article on how I redid the exhaust system on my 1987 MK I. It is located at : [url]http://www.c36ia.com/node/897[/url]
In one of the pictures it shows the hump hose and it is blue. Also note that in the final installation that the hump hose is not in place; measure twice, cut once :-)

It took me several weekends to do the project because one of the exhaust bolts was rusted into place and it took several applications of PB Blaster and a pipe wrench to get the last bolt out. It seems there is always 1 bolt that will not come out and it is usually in the most inconvient location.

I hope this helps,

Ralph
Still a Thrill # 765
WK, STD Rig
Lake Texoma, TX

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Gary Teeter
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Steve,

I found my stainless fittings on a website called fittingsonline.com. The total cost was $115.73. All of the fittings were 316 stainless, which is better in the saltwater environment than the more common 304.

My assembly required no welding. I came out of the exhaust flange on the engine with a 1-1/4 street ell, then up with a 5" nipple, then across to the mixing tee with two 4" nipples with a coupling between them, and then down to the hump hose with a 3" nipple with the threads sawed off on one end. I used two nipples with a coupling between them for the longer top run because I had no way to thread a longer piece of pipe.

In your boat, you may require a slightly different nipple length. I descovered that at some time in the past cooling water to the exhaust was lost, and the muffler was overheated enough to burn the resin out of the fiberglass muffler entry tube. I replaced the muffler with a round muffler, and I think the entry is in the same place, but am not sure. I used a round muffler with a side entry, a hump hose, elbow, and second hump hose to get up to the mixing elbow, so I have lots of flexibility.

Gary Teeter
1989 C36 "Annie G"
Hull 966
Everett, WA

Gary Teeter
1989 C36 "AnnieG"
Std Rig #966, M25xp
Everett, WA

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Steve Frost
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Gary,

Thank you, I will check out that supplier and add this to my list.
Sounds like a great solution and pretty inexpensive. My galvanized pipe will not last forever.

Steve

Cepheus dream
C36 MK I # 825
MK I Tech Editor No Mas

Cuba660
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Hello. I have a 1994 C36 MKII with the M36B engine that started to get a brown dust on the all over the engine late this season. After doing some research, and having someone look at it, I was told that the dust is from the insulation covering the "mixing elbow". We didn't take the insulation off at that time to dig further since I'm getting the boat hauled this week. I assume the elbow may be leaking so I started looking for a new one on the Catalina Direct site, only thing I find is the Exhaust Riser. Question, is the "mixing elbow" part of the exhaust riser"? It looks like it is all one part, not just the elbow. Thanks!

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Chachere
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All one. piece, the "mixing elbow" is integral.
 

Matthew Chachère
s/v ¡Que Chévere!
(Formerly 1985 C36 MKI #466 tall rig fin keel M25)
2006 Catalina Morgan 440 #30.
Homeported in eastern Long Island, NY

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pkeyser
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Mixer elbow, exhaust riser, elbow are all words commonly used to describe this part of the engine.

A last option for stubborn bolt removal is to remove the manifold with riser attached and bring it to a reputable shop. It's a messy PIA to do it this way (the antifreeze will have to be emptied), but if the bolt is really rusted on, they may have better methods than us DIY'rs. I had to resort to this on our C30 with an M25.

Paul & Wendy Keyser
"First Light"
Newburyport MA/Rye NH
2005 C36 MKII #2257
Wing, M35B

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Chachere
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To Cuba 660: If you do a search under "Exhaust Riser", you will find quite a few threads discussing the various options for this.  
There have been mixed reviews of the Catalina Direct 1-piece riser, BTW: see, e.g., www.catalina36.org/forum/general-discussion/bad-exhaust-riser-catalina-direct
Many owners (us included) made their own replacements out of pipe and pipe fittings, preferably schedule 80 black pipe of stainless.  See these threads, for example:
https://www.catalina36.org/forum/technical-discussion/exhaust-riser-rebuild
https://www.catalina36.org/forum/technical-discussion/new-exhaust-riser(link is external)
https://www.catalina36.org/forum/technical-discussion/new-exhaust-riser-1-14-black-iron-pipe
They are cheaper, and may last just as long.

Here's a link to a picture of an injection nipple in one owner's writeup of a rebuilt  ...www.realitycheck.me/gallery/exhaust_riser/thumbs/exhaust%20riser%20before%20wrap.JPG(link is external)
(the author of that page has a nice write-up of the rebuild process,
at www.realitycheck.me/building-a-new-exhaust-riser.htm(link is external) ).

You can get that the water injection pipe nipple here:
www.westerbeke.com/Product/NIPPLE/299693?productname=NIPPLE&productid=54202A2FDAF73B1CA82D9219(link is external)

If you do go with the one-piece exhaust riser from Catalina Direct -- www.catalinadirect.com/shop-by-boat/catalina-36/engine/exhaust-system/ (link is external)-  you must make sure you get all the dimensions and pipe angles just right, because it can't be adjusted to fit after the fact (another reason, besides price, why many C36IA members make their own out of pipe fittings instead).  
 

Matthew Chachère
s/v ¡Que Chévere!
(Formerly 1985 C36 MKI #466 tall rig fin keel M25)
2006 Catalina Morgan 440 #30.
Homeported in eastern Long Island, NY

Cuba660
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Thank you for all the info. I'll definitely do my research. 

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sidthekid
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If you go the Catalina Direct route, I ordered the following parts to have mixing elbow and key associated parts replaced this summer. Like you I have the 35B. The technician at our marina had no issues replacing the elbow.
Items Ordered
-----------------
Exhaust Flange Circular,
"B" Series Engine (#Z3061): 1
Item Total: $90.30

Exhaust Hump Hose 1-5/8"I.D X 6" (#Z2152): 1
Item Total: $44.52

Exhaust Riser C-30, C-36 B Series Engines (#Z3064): 1
Item Total: $547.78

Engine Exhaust Flange
Circular Gasket Only (#Z2594): 1
Item Total: $5.10

Engine Exhaust Flange
V Clamp (#Z2917): 1
Item Total: $39.40

 

Bill & Barb
s/v Northern Lights
2002 Catalina 36 MKII #2086
Rock Hall, MD
Northern Chesapeake

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