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Wally-1840
Last seen: 2 months 1 week ago
Joined: 11/9/09
Posts: 117
M35B Damper plate

Hi all;
New to the board, (Hull# 1840).
I want to replace my tranny damper plate this winter and awhile back read the article by a member who did it without removing the bellhousing.
I wonder if that gentleman is reading this if he could give me the part#/model# of the R&D, (PYI), plate. I'd like to have this ready for my marina so they don't have to go through that and charge me for their time if it's already been done.
I can't do this project myself, as my knees won't allow that position for long.
Also, I can't seem to find that article....can someone point me in the right direction?
Thanks everybody!
Wally

Wally
"Onanne"
2000 MKII, deep keel, tall rig
​Lake Champlain
 

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Wally
"Onanne"
2000 MKII, deep keel, tall rig
​Lake Champlain
 
LCBrandt's picture
LCBrandt
Last seen: 6 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: 6/26/07
Posts: 1282

Welcome to the Forum.

Sure, we're pleased to help. From the C36IA home page select Articles, then Maintenance. You'll find the article on page 4 of that section.

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Larry Brandt
S/V High Flight #2109
Pacific Northwest, PDX-based
2002 C-36 mkII SR/FK M35B
 

Tjohnw
Last seen: 1 week 6 days ago
Joined: 12/18/16
Posts: 2

I can't find that article ?

Southpaws2's picture
Southpaws2
Last seen: 3 years 4 days ago
Joined: 3/3/08
Posts: 45

Wally, so what made you conclude you need to replace your damper plate? Can you describe the "symptoms" you experienced? I think I may have a dampler plate problem from what I read but so far I can't get any of my sailing buddies to agree with me (likely because most of them don't seem to know what a damper is but that doesn't stop them from being an expert once I do explain).

Rick Verbeek
#1763
Toronto, Ontario

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Rick Verbeek
Southpaws
1999 C36 #1763
Lakeshore Yacht Club
Toronto

Wally-1840
Last seen: 2 months 1 week ago
Joined: 11/9/09
Posts: 117

[QUOTE=Southpaws2;3157]Wally, so what made you conclude you need to replace your damper plate? Can you describe the "symptoms" you experienced? I think I may have a dampler plate problem from what I read but so far I can't get any of my sailing buddies to agree with me (likely because most of them don't seem to know what a damper is but that doesn't stop them from being an expert once I do explain).

Rick Verbeek
#1763
Toronto, Ontario[/QUOTE]

Hi Rick;
Ever since new, (2000), there has been a distinct "rattle" at idle RPM. As soon as the throttle was upped a tad, it went away. I say went because this year I seem to be able to detect the rattle at cruising, (2000 RPM).
I learned about this from this board. From the way I understand it, the plate, (looks sorta like a clutch plate in a car), has a series of springs around it that help absorb forces. The springs were undersized and become loose. There are aftermarket, (PYI), plates that are made from a polymer that will "cure" the problem.
I'm not really sure what would happen If I let this go, but it's driving me nuts and seems to be getting more pronounced after 9 seasons. I have < 400 hours on the engine.
Hope this helps.
Wally

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Wally
"Onanne"
2000 MKII, deep keel, tall rig
​Lake Champlain
 
gforaker's picture
gforaker
Last seen: 2 weeks 8 hours ago
Joined: 7/20/07
Posts: 133

According to posts on the email news group, it is this [url]http://www.merequipment.com/228712/products/80102-Sachs-Drive-Plate.html... There is supposedly an article by Sean McGuckin here on the web site.
Here is a recent post from Fred Jackson #2209 It has been discussed recently and Fred says he took his tranny apart to replace it with the new polymer model and it was already "updated".

[I]
I researched what most likely causes the mechanical rattle in my drivetrain while in forward gear but only at low RPM (below 1,500) and concluded it must be springs in the damper plate.
I studied Sean McGuckin's excellent photo/text instructions on how to change the damper plate.
I bought the same replacement damper plate Sean did, the uses polymer material instead of springs to absorb shock.
I drove 900 miles from my home in N.C. to my boat in Sarnia, Ontario.
I did the transmission-ectomy, and have all the scabs from cuts on the back of my hands that you get while turning wrenches in tight places.
And guess what:
My M35B with Hurth model ZF10 tranny already has the polymer material damper plate!!!
So, I put the tranny back and drove 900 miles home. (after a few drinks and a good night's sleep)[/I]

Tom Senator has added recently that ZF took over manufacturing from Hurth and turned out a shoddy product.

These email messages are searchable here on the site.

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Gene Foraker
Sandusky Yacht Club
Sandusky, OH
1999  C36  #1786
Gypsy Wagon

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nbpatterson
Last seen: 7 years 4 months ago
Joined: 4/25/09
Posts: 17

Hi Everyone,

I recently had the damper plate replaced with a similar spring-style unit - perhaps I should have gone for the polymer unit instead? The previous one was about to fall apart and the new one does make a substantial difference when in neutral. But I can still hear a slight clatter from down below.

However, when in gear, and particularly in forward at low revs, there is significant clatter from down below - most irritating!! Not so bad in reverse gear.

I spoke to the mechanics about this and they reckon that the ZF/Hurst transmissions used on these small diesels are really very noisy, especially at low revs. The fact that it is fairly quiet in neutral would indicate that a small amount of transmission noise is being generated and they reckon it is not from the damper plate.

In forward, they tell me, that two gears mesh (the rest of them rattling around), whilst in reverse three gears mesh making the box quieter - I can attest to this. Apparently the transmission providers get heaps of calls about this and they respond with "and so what's the problem?"

They also recommend to get the tachometer calibrated (which I did) and set the idle revs to around 850 rpm (no higher else the box will bang into gear) - which I also did.

I am thus advised that we as C36 owners are not alone with this noisy performance in gear at low revs (unless you have an all-in-one sail drive arrangement from a French boat builder) and we simply have to grin and bear it as we clatter our way into the marinas disturbing all neighbors until we switch the noise off.

Is this other's experience as well? Or am I being sold a tall story here? My neighbor's C42 seems to purr its way into its berth, but then again he does not have a Universal engine.

--
Nigel Patterson
Sydney, Australia
Fresh Aire II, 2001 C36, Hull # 1976
Southpaws2's picture
Southpaws2
Last seen: 3 years 4 days ago
Joined: 3/3/08
Posts: 45

Thanks Wally. As usual, a single symptom (in this case, tranny clatter) leads to lots of opinions and experiences all of which seem to provide good advice. The message I take home from the postings is that the Universal M35B tends to have a degree of "built in" transmission clatter at low rpms. (That describes my enigne exactly.) It's up the the ear of the owner to decide when that clatter becomes excessive which likely indicates a problem with the damper plate.

Let us know how your project goes and what was found with your damper plate.

Rick Verbeek
Southpaws
C36 1999 Sail#1763
Toronto, Ontario

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Rick Verbeek
Southpaws
1999 C36 #1763
Lakeshore Yacht Club
Toronto

LCBrandt's picture
LCBrandt
Last seen: 6 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: 6/26/07
Posts: 1282

Wally, did you ever replace your damper plate???

Has anyone on the Forum with a Mark II and the M35B replaced their damper plate with an R&D damper plate?

The R&D design appears to be silent (ie, no metal springs), and seems to be a better solution. I called R&D, located in Lynnwood, WA, near Seattle, but they have no information based on model of boat/engine combination. To get an answer from them I need to provide them - at a minimum - the model number of the transmission as well. If someone here with the M35B has already used an R&D it would be helpful to know which part number they used.

--

Larry Brandt
S/V High Flight #2109
Pacific Northwest, PDX-based
2002 C-36 mkII SR/FK M35B
 

stu jackson c34's picture
stu jackson c34
Last seen: 1 month 2 weeks ago
Joined: 12/3/08
Posts: 1269

Don't know if this applies to the M35 Hurth transmissions as well:

[url]http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=672406&highli...

You might want to get in contact with Maine Sail.

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Stu Jackson, C34IA Secretary, C34 #224, 1986, SR/FK, M25 engine, Rocna 10 (22#)

pierview
Last seen: 6 hours 10 min ago
Joined: 9/27/09
Posts: 485

I had this exact problem about 3 weeks ago and posted about it... after 9 years the plate failed and I ended up with no forward or reverse.

I too had a low RPM chatter all the time. After the faiure and the new part (pics on my original post) all the chatter stopped.

The transmission had to come ou to replace it and the new part was about $435.

--

Chuck Parker
HelenRita 2072 Mk II
2002 Tall Rig - Winged Keel
Atlantic Highlands, NJ

Wally-1840
Last seen: 2 months 1 week ago
Joined: 11/9/09
Posts: 117

Yes I did have the marina replace it. (My old knees will not take being bent into a pretzle for that kind of job!).

I do believe they used and R&D plate, but I don't have the model number. As for the quitness, I'd have to say about a 50% improvement. It still makes some noise.

Wally

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Wally
"Onanne"
2000 MKII, deep keel, tall rig
​Lake Champlain
 
Sailing C36
Last seen: 1 month 3 days ago
Joined: 4/17/10
Posts: 4

Hi, I have a C36 Hull # 2140 Universal M35B with the hurth transmission.
I have been experiencing the rattle noise everyone is taliking about.
Only forward gear, low rpm up to approx. 1200, I removed my tranny and damper plate and found the new style damper plate with the polymer ring.
It appears to be ok but some reports stated the polymer ring could be too stiff ??? I called Hansen marine a Universal dealer and he recomends replacing the damper plate with one that has springs. I keep getting mixed reviews.
I also called a hurth tranny dealer in Kalamazoo Michigan and he said the nouse is normal and called low RPM gear rattle and There is nothing I can do. The noise is embarassing in a marina !!!! Could you tell me what Damper plate you installed as a replacement. springs or no springs Thanks.
Orlando Cardinuto
C36 MKII # 2140

BudStreet
Last seen: 1 month 2 weeks ago
Joined: 9/4/09
Posts: 1127

What the hurth dealer in Kalamazoo told you is probably right. The Hurth trans just do that rattle. The spring plates often make it worse. I'd bolt it back together and leave it. Ours quiets down a little lower than 1200, we deal with it by getting the revs over the noise barrier as soon as possible. Six years, two different boats, same problem, same solution, zero cost, works for us.

LCBrandt's picture
LCBrandt
Last seen: 6 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: 6/26/07
Posts: 1282

Go to C36IA homepage, click on the Technical tab, then on Important Notices. The first article you find at the top of the page is the Hurst Gear Clatter Memo. This memo explains the issues you're dealing with.

You may need to be a paid up Member (capital M) of the C36IA in order to access this Technical archive, I'm not sure.

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Larry Brandt
S/V High Flight #2109
Pacific Northwest, PDX-based
2002 C-36 mkII SR/FK M35B
 

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TomSoko
Last seen: 3 weeks 1 day ago
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Posts: 978

Orlando,
The Important Notices tab under Technical is open for all to see. You don't have to be a paid Member of C36/375IA. They are important, and we want all to see them. Most are safety related, and EVERYONE should read them.

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Tom Sokoloski
C36/375IA Past Commodore
Noank, CT

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Haro
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Posts: 264
knotdoneyet
Last seen: 2 months 4 days ago
Joined: 7/27/12
Posts: 249

Seems the 350's have the same problem.  My friend has a 350 with an M35B and replacing the damper made his silent.  In neutral, mine makes a racket.  In gear, it's silent.

This makes it annoying only when docking.
 

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2000 C36 MKII 1825

Wally-1840
Last seen: 2 months 1 week ago
Joined: 11/9/09
Posts: 117

Wow, my old post! Funny thing, I'm noticing noise again. Probably going to redo the plate again. 

--
Wally
"Onanne"
2000 MKII, deep keel, tall rig
​Lake Champlain
 
HowLin's picture
HowLin
Last seen: 1 year 3 months ago
Joined: 1/12/12
Posts: 351

Seems to be common with our vintage, I had significant rattle at under 1200 rpm....  I replaced my damper plate this summer with the R&D polymer plate.  I opted for the HD ("High Deflection") plate which gives much better isolation and shock absorption.  Since I have an AutoProp I found that I also had a significant "clunk" when putting it in gear (prob due to the prop blades swinging into position)...   All rattles and clunks gone now!!
Was easy enough to replace without jacking the engine, but I had my shaft backed out all the way with stuffing box removed mind you...

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---- Howard & Linda Matwick ----
--- S/V "Silhouette" - Nanaimo, BC ----
--- 1999  C36 MkII  #1776 M35BC ---
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Peter Taylor
Last seen: 1 week 2 days ago
Joined: 7/10/08
Posts: 103

Damper Plates and Transmission Rattle
 

I have been following the experience with transmission rattle for a few years together with the various opinions and solutions with different types of damper plates.
​My 2005 model  M35B has the polymer plate already installed and still has a noticeable rattle with less than 300 engine hours.
While there may be noise from the gear train, ​I suspect the main cause is as shown in this video.

Reduction in noise by replacing the damper plate may not be a function of the type of plate but the fact that new splines would allow less movement on the output shaft. If the output shaft splines were worn then there would be minimal improvement with a new plate.

https://youtu.be/IQlc8v4STcs

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Peter Taylor Melbourne Australia. Altair  #2227 2005 C36 Mk11

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pkeyser
Last seen: 2 days 23 hours ago
Joined: 5/18/13
Posts: 437

If any one is working on replacing the damper plate on their MKII / M35B, I'd be curious to know, with transmission removed, could the prop shaft be pushed far enough into the bell housing (with prop removed) to enable work on the cutlass bearing? I think the shaft might just clear the bearing strut. Also would the shaft flange have to be removed?

Just curious. Thanks for any input.

--

Paul & Wendy Keyser
"First Light"
Newburyport MA/Rye NH
2005 C36 MKII #2257
Wing, M35B

HowLin's picture
HowLin
Last seen: 1 year 3 months ago
Joined: 1/12/12
Posts: 351

Had all dismantled this summer, but did not push shaft forward - so I can't answer that...

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---- Howard & Linda Matwick ----
--- S/V "Silhouette" - Nanaimo, BC ----
--- 1999  C36 MkII  #1776 M35BC ---
LCBrandt's picture
LCBrandt
Last seen: 6 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: 6/26/07
Posts: 1282

Peter Taylor, thank you for the link to your intriguing video. Certainly worth some consideration, even some experimentation to validate the hypothesis. 

As well, I refer anyone interested to the Hurth Gear Clatter Memo now archived in the C36IA's Important Notices section.

Personally, I increased the idle rpm on our #2109 to about 950 in order to quiet the rattle. This idle rpm increase seems to me to be a practical mitigation.
 

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Larry Brandt
S/V High Flight #2109
Pacific Northwest, PDX-based
2002 C-36 mkII SR/FK M35B
 

Harvest Moon
Last seen: 6 days 1 hour ago
Joined: 9/4/19
Posts: 1

Hi all that are looking to replace the damper plate.  I was able to remove the transmission without raising the engine.  I did have to remove the heatexchange, which needed cleaning any way and the exhaust elbow.  i have a standard stuffing box and was able to push the shaft back a couple of inches.  I then removed the transmission bolts any pryed it away from the bellhousing with a screw driver.  Since the transmission is a Z drive, I was able to turn it upside down to gain clearance to clear the shaft coupling.  I had the transmission rebuilt while it was out.  I had to put it in upside down until the spline was in the new damper plate far enough to clear the coupling.

Good luck

pkeyser's picture
pkeyser
Last seen: 2 days 23 hours ago
Joined: 5/18/13
Posts: 437

Purchased ours from "Discount Marine Source" p/n 44624. Cost $477 in 2015. We have an M35B and only had to pull the transmission to repace the damper plate (2005 MK II).  We too found the origional unit was a polymer design with about 900 hours. Replacing it reduced the rattle only slightly. My belief is that most of the rattling originates with a loose fit between the damper hub and spline shaft teeth. Of course, if you have an older worn damper design with springs, that could be a noise source.

Had I followed Larry's recommendation of upping the idle speed (or turning up the radio volume) I would have saved $477 and lots of time  as well as sore back and knees.

--

Paul & Wendy Keyser
"First Light"
Newburyport MA/Rye NH
2005 C36 MKII #2257
Wing, M35B

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