Wiring electronics

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pmeyers
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Wiring electronics

I installed a Raymarine c90w. The previous installation had 1 power
Cable to the pedestal which was split beteen the autopilot
And wind/speed. I used the same (14awg) cable to power both the
C90 and autopilot. However when I activate the autoplot
I get a flutter on the gps display screen. Any suggestions;
Should I put the autopilot on it's own circuit? Since I am out
Of breakers is it acceptable to run the autopilot directly to
A battery with an online fuse or can I double up on the instrument breaker with
An inline fuse?

Paul Meyers
1986 Catalina 36
Hull #615
Ventura, California

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LCBrandt
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Paul, a 14 awg wire seems quite small for the loads - all summed together, apparently - that you're describing. As a consequence, you may be experiencing the flicker on the display, but unseen you may be placing the safety of your vessel at risk. Are you SURE that the wire size and circuit breaker size are proper for the SUM of all the currents these items consume??? It would be an interesting test to place a high quality voltmeter at the input to the C90 and see what voltage you have there when the A/P is engaged. My guess is that it will be very low.

You might also want to make sure the negative wiring - the ground wires - are properly sized. They must be at least the same size as the wires taking the power to the equipment.

I suggest that you get a book by Charlie Wing or Nigel Calder on boat electronics (sorry, I don't recall the names of the books) and use it to verify that you are using the proper size wire and CB for the loads. It is an acceptable procedure to connect the A/P to the battery via correctly-sized wiring and fuse. By all means, ALWAYS use marine quality wiring and hardware (terminals, splices, shrink tubing, etc) on a boat...DO NOT use household type wire and hardware, as it will only cause problems sooner rather than later.

Larry Brandt
S/V High Flight #2109
Pacific Northwest, PDX-based
2002 C-36 mkII SR/FK M35B
 

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Ciscocat
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Boatowner's Mechanical and Electrical Manual--very good book to have as a reference, it answers most if not all questions about either subject

Mike Hogan
s/v Ciscocat #226
Mark I XP25, std rig

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pmeyers
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Just wrote a lengthy response on my iPhone only to have it get lost when I posted it. I'll try to be brief; my finger is getting shorter.
You suggestion about checking voltage while the auto is engaged is a good one. I wasn't thinking so much about power as interference. The c90 draws 32 watts and the st4000 4 watts when in auto according to the manuals. They don't provide the power draw for when the motor is running.
I can upgrade cable but don't know if I would still have interference if running both devices on same power supply. I can run a 2nd cable but don't know how others connect additional electrical devices to a full panel? Is there a simple way to expand capacity short of replacing the entire panel? Could piggy back on the instruments breaker but could that still produce interference? Could go directly to batteries but couldn't always run auto if I had to isolate batteries. Would use inline breakers in both cases.
In any case I am using all marine grade components, tinned wire, shrink fit terminals etc. I have the Casey book, but of course it's not at the boat

Paul Meyers
1986 Catalina 36
Hull #615
Ventura, California

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LCBrandt
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Paul, the A/P is one of the heaviest power loads in the boat. That's why I think a 14 awg wire seems way too flimsy to use for it AND another (almost 3 amps, you say...that's what 32 watts at 12 volts almost is) critical power load as well. An important load like an A/P should be on its own circuit protection and its own wiring.

There's a third issue with having the A/P and your chartplotter on the same power source, and that is redundancy. If you have a fault in the A/P you will be unable to isolate it and so will lose your navigation at just the time you will be depending on everything else to work properly and get you home.

When I use the term 'circuit breaker' or 'cb', I refer to a resettable circuit protection device. Ideally, most equipment on the boat would be on cb's rather than inline fuses; this allows you to always shut the stuff off when you leave the boat and to know for sure that there is no current drain while you're away. But an inline fuse of the correct size will do just as well for anything that has its own On-Off switch, such as your CD player.

Your best bet is to read one of the recommended books - the Charlie Wing book "Boatowners Illustrated Handbook of Wiring" is fast and easy to read - and then draw your power distribution schematic on a sheet of paper, with the wires sizes shown. First, draw how the boat is presently wired; then draw your proposed modifications.

Always remember: 1) wire size is selected appropriate to the power required at the equipment, 2) that size is then increased for the length of the wire run; and 3) the circuit protection is sized for the *size of the wire*, not for the size of the equipment load.

Circuit protection is NOT there to protect the equipment at the end of the wire. It is there to prevent a fire, and thus to protect the boat and its crew.

Larry Brandt
S/V High Flight #2109
Pacific Northwest, PDX-based
2002 C-36 mkII SR/FK M35B
 

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pmeyers
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Larry,
Thank you for your thoughtful and informative reply.
I recognized that as you say the breaker is to protect the boat. The inline fuse, as required by the manufacturer is to protect the equipment. It should not be used instead of a breaker but in conjunction with one. Loads that would trip the breaker would likely fry the electronics.
What I'm trying to figure out at this point is how to physically introduce a new breaker for a new auto pilot circuit since my panel is full. Perhaps there is a breaker switch that can be mounted in the cockpit?

Paul Meyers
1986 Catalina 36
Hull #615
Ventura, California

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TomSoko
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Paul,
The best solution (not the easiest) would be to replace/upgrade the panel. The electrical loads of today's boats were not dreamed of in 1986. Another solution would be to move the battery switch to its own panel just below the electrical panel. That would give you more real estate to add breakers. You could use a piece of 1/4" smoked plastic to mount the breakers on, and then mount the plastic over the spot were the battery switch used to be. I've attached a pic of the panel I built for Julandra. You don't have to get as fancy, but it might give you some ideas. Hope this helps.

Tom Sokoloski
C36/375IA Past Commodore
Noank, CT

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Tom,
That's really quite excellent! You obviously spent a lot of time designing the way that it is organized. I was on my boat when I saw your response and it got me to spend more time looking at my panel As a result I saw a temporary solution for adding 1 circuit. There is a service light that I assume is supposed to be lit when there is power to the panel Mine was apparently disconnected by the PO and it leaves space to add a breaker.
Having said that I see that this is a temporary solution at best; I really need to do an upgrade on the panel. I will search through the archives to see if you or others have documented this upgrade.
Did you buy or build your own panel?

Paul Meyers
1986 Catalina 36
Hull #615
Ventura, California

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Paul,
I built it. Went to a local plastic shop and bought a piece of black/smoked plastic. Cut it to the same size as the old plastic insert. Too thin, and the plastic is easily broken. Too thick and the breakers don't work. I laid out the breakers and gauges on a large piece of paper, then transferred the final layout to the plastic. Moving the battery switch to a separate panel gives you tons of room. Even after 5-10 years of improvements, I still had a few spare breakers on the panel. The breakers were the only expensive part, but still a lot less than having a custom panel built by someone. Somewhere in the Upgrades section of the website is a link to the improvements I made to Julandra. There are a few pictures of the panel, front and back.

Tom Sokoloski
C36/375IA Past Commodore
Noank, CT

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Why not just put it on your "Instruments" breaker/fuse? Then run the right sized wire to the AP. I agree, 14 ga. is too small for almost anything on our boat because of the distances involved. For instance, Catalina used 14 ga. for the lights and that's pretty shoddy when lights dim when another one is turned on!

You could also do what Tom suggest without doing all the work he did: buy a small subpanel and feed it off a breaker on your main panel, locate it anywhere it works for you. Many of our C34 skippers have done this.

I purchased a few of those green lights from Seaward a few years ago 'cuz when we bought our boat the old one had blown out. Not only is it a good reminder to me to turn off the DC power before I leave the boat, but it's also a great "night light!"

Stu Jackson, C34IA Secretary, C34 #224, 1986, SR/FK, M25 engine, Rocna 10 (22#)

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Jeesh Tom,
I went to your upgrade site and I was blown away by all of the work that you have done on your boat. I plan to refer to it often, especially if I ever run out of projects.

Stu,
I thought of adding the AP power to the instruments switch but I was thinking that the power to the C90 should be isolated from the autopilot to prevent any potential interference. (I just realized that the PO had run the old AP from a separate circuit by tapping into the power going to the engine instrument panel. That's got to go.) Short term I need to add a 2nd switched circuit for the AP. Longer term I need to upgrade the electrical panel, either with a full upgrade like Tom's or by adding a smaller subpanel as you suggest.

I still need to unstep the mast to install a new wind speed/direction unit. While doing that I will have an electrician completely replace all of the wiring and install a pvc conduit as well as the radar. My goal is to get the boat side done so all he has to do is hook up the electrical from the mast. After that I would really like to get in some sailing in before I spend the whole summer fixing things!

Boat is 3 hrs away so everything is painfully slow.

Paul Meyers
1986 Catalina 36
Hull #615
Ventura, California

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Ciscocat
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Paul,
I have hull 226 and there was already a conduit within the mast. i would be surprised to find out that you didn't already have one have you double checked to be sure there is not one present, if there is you should see rivets along the forward face of the mast spaced evenly down it's length. seem like i remember is starting not quite at the top of the mast so maybe you just overlooked it?
regards,

Mike Hogan
s/v Ciscocat #226
Mark I XP25, std rig

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pmeyers
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Mike,
You're right I do have one conduit. When I tried to use the existing cable for the previous wind speed directions to pull the new cable we coudn't get it through. I think that the cable must have been twisted around another cable. Tried a number of different ways but ultimately had to accept that the only way to do it was to drop the mast. Since I have to do it I am going to make the most of it and replace everything and add another conduit. Bought all new wiring from Geniunedealz which I think is one of the best internet businesses going. (not affiliated)

Paul Meyers
1986 Catalina 36
Hull #615
Ventura, California

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I have attached a photo of upgraded pedestal to give a sense of what I am working towards. Removed old instrument pods and replaced pedestal. Still 9.5" wide, but 1.25"to make it easier to run cables. Added a folding wheel found on craigslist. Makes it easier to move around. Will add ram mike to helm.

[ATTACH]527[/ATTACH]

Paul Meyers
1986 Catalina 36
Hull #615
Ventura, California

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