I think I've posted to this forum before about the peculiar behavior of my Link 1000. Here's what's happening:
On 2/9 it showed:
-5.6 ah.
12.65 v
-0.2 a
At that time I turned on the AC main and it jumped to 12.6 amps and then started descending from there. It showed 14.25 volts while it was charging.
on 2/14 I went to the boat. I had left the AC main on, meaning the shore power should have been charging the batteries. It showed:
-51.3 AH
13.5 V
-0.1 A
I turned on the battery switch to "both" and turned on several switches (lights, fridge, etc.) It still showed 0 amps. I turned off the AC main switch and it showed -3.5 A and rising till it hit -6.1 A.
I turned on the AC main switch and it showed +12.3 A and started descending. It also showed 14.45 V.
When I first went onto the boat today, before I did anything I checked the charger/inverter. Its lights were on, so it was getting power.
So what I cannot figure out is why the Link 1000 should show steadily increasing amp hours lost when the AC main switch is on. Note: on my boat the AC main switch would control whether or not the charger gets power from the shore power. The charger/inverter is wired directly to the batteries, meaning that the position of the battery switch would not affect whether or not the charger can charge the batteries.
It seems to me that if the monitor is showing over 50 amp hours lost but 14.5 volts, then it seems there would possibly be something wrong with the monitor. Ideas?
SF Bay
1998 C36
I just have a few seconds to post. It is critical that ALL loads go through the shunt (I am assuming that is how your monitor measures the current flow). If your battery charger is not hooked up so that the charging current goes through the shunt, it will not register.
Just a thought.
Duane Ising - Past Commodore (2011-2012)
s/v Diva Di
1999 Catalina 36 Hull #1777
Std rig; wing keel, M35B, Delta (45#)
Punta Gorda, FL
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/diva-di/
Thanks for the suggestion, but I wired things up through the shunt. If you review what I wrote - the responses I recorded - you will see that at times the monitor did record that the battery was being charged. The issue is that it seems to show a steady decrease in amp hours over time (days) while the AC main switch is turned on and the charger seems to be turned on (lights are on). My suspicion is still that the monitor is malfunctiooning, but I don't know for sure. Stu was on the boat and he seems to suspect otherwise.
SF Bay
1998 C36
John:
Is the link 1000 new to you or have you had it in the past on the boat? If you have used it in the past and all was fine. Go over all your connections and clean them then grease each connection. The shunt is very sensitive. Just an idea is all that I saying here.
Randy
Randy Sherwood
Mutualfun 1990 # 1057
T/R W/K M35a
Home. Charlotte, Mi.
Boat. St Augustine,Fl.
Everything is new. I had a monitor before, but it was faulty and I returned it to the manufacturer for the present one. The shunt is new also.
SF Bay
1998 C36
John,
I have a Link 2000, but it is one of the first models made and not like the currrent ones ( different face items and functions). I had battery problems a year ago, and before finally replacing I checked out all potential problems. It was then I learned that the Link 2000 would show amps used while the shore power was plugged in. I have continued to monitor, and this seems the norm for my Link 2ooo. Stu helped me try to figure out my Link's quirks, and I received a goodly amount of info about the Link from him, as well as suggestions. However, the darn thing just wants to count down amps all the time. I have left my refrig. on at the dock so the beer will always be semi chilled, and that really uses the amps. Bottom line is that when I go off for an overnight/weekend/longer cruise, I just reset the amps to zero prior to leaving, knowing that my batteries are fully charged. I suppose that the Link just monitors the amps being used through the batteries, and doesn't account for the charging from the I/Charger. I think it should record positive amps, but it just doesn't. I'm too cheap to just ditch the thing and get a new one. Plus the phone cord to the I/C doesn't communicate, and it should, so I can't use those functions associated. Aah that hole in the water just can't seem to fill up. This year = new bottom job, new dodger, new bimini. No room for a new Link. Any suggestions from anyone?
Bill Taylor
Heel'n Good #1612
Washington, NC
I don't know what to say.
If ALL the current that goes in and out of the battery bank goes through the shunt and the meter is not registering the input amps from charging then the meter either has a serious design flaw (unlikely) or it is malfunctioning.
My "E-meter" is from 1999 or so and it works fine as long as you keep the leads and shunt clean.
I wish you luck in solving your mystery.
Duane Ising - Past Commodore (2011-2012)
s/v Diva Di
1999 Catalina 36 Hull #1777
Std rig; wing keel, M35B, Delta (45#)
Punta Gorda, FL
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/diva-di/
What billta reports about his Link 2000 seems to be exactly what mine does, except only sometimes (I think). But what good is the monitor if it doesn't show when the battery has been charged?
SF Bay
1998 C36
John,
I am SO glad you posted this thread. I have been pulling my hair out over the past few months trying to figure out why my Link 1000 shows -0.2A when EVERYTHING is turned off. From these replies, I guess it is a characteristic of the Link 1000. Earlier on this forum is a post from Stu Jackson regarding the "Gotcha Algorithm" and a link to the C34 message board. It answered a bunch of questions for my as to why my Link 1000 would go to float mode in what I thought was too quick a time period. I used to have an Ample Power E-Monitor, and a Xantrex Battery Monitor (XBM), and neither of these had those characteristics. Bummer.
Tom Sokoloski
C36/375IA Past Commodore
Noank, CT
I think the monitor showing a -0.2 amp draw may be correct. Don't forget, there is the light that the monitor is running, plus all batteries slowly lose their charge over time. As I understand it, this is the parasitic draw, if I'm not mistaken. The issue is why doesn't the monitor show the charge. I posted the same question onto the sailboatowners.com forum ("ask all sailors") and there has been quite a bit of discussion there on the question. Others have had problems with the Link 1000 and there were suggestions for other manufacturers. Those interested in the issue would find it worthwhile to look at that thread.
SF Bay
1998 C36
Here's the link to John's co.com discussion: [url]http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=115882&highli...
John's right about the parasitic draw, and it's in the manual for the unit. Shouldn't be a surprise. We have a Link 2000, and it shows -0.1 A when everything is off. I have the backlighting at about 30% of full, but I don't think the red lights on the Link 1000 can be "dimmed." :)
The Gotcha" Link algorithm topic that Tom noted is here: [url]http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4922.0.html[/url]
FYI, I'd been corresponding offline with John about this. It may not be appropriate for me to copy everything we've discussed, and if John would like to do that, he has my fervent approval. My suggestion to John is this: I do not yet think his Link 1000 is faulty. Not yet, please understand that. He has a GFCI outlet that his charger is plugged into. It pops occasionally. That's not good, and leads me to believe that he has other problems with his A.C. system,. either on his boat or on his marina dock. He doesn't have a separate charger switch on his AC panel, so he uses his AC main breaker to turn his charger on and off. I've offered to come down and help him trace his AC power and check and confirm his Link 1000 wiring, which I'm sure he has right but is worth a recheck, including the alternator output location and the charger output wiring to the house bank. But I just haven't physically been able to do that between work and my leg situation (which is, thank goodness, rapidly improving, but it hurts more when it rains and it's been drizzling here for weeks!:)). The reason for this is that since it seems to work when the alternator is providing the power, I can't yet understand why it doesn't when the charger is doing so. DC input amperage is DC input amperage, regardless of the source.
For now, it seems that he has "learned to live with it" for the time being, and I sure hope we can get together soon.
Stu Jackson, C34IA Secretary, C34 #224, 1986, SR/FK, M25 engine, Rocna 10 (22#)
If you go to the other thread on this issue - on the sailboatowners.com forum - you will see that somebody else said they had a similar problem with a Link 2000 - essentially the same product but for two battery banks. Others on that thread commented that this is not a very reliable product. The reason I don't think it's wired up incorrectly is that it seems to function correctly much of the time. It may be that some setting is wrong, though. But in summary, what seems to happen is that when the battery bank is fully charged with the AC power left on (i.e. with the charger/inverter on), then the monitor only registers the parasitic draw and not the charge that the charger is putting back into it. If I turn off the monitor (by disconnecting one of the fuses) then it resets itself and seems to work fine.
SF Bay
1998 C36
John, for what it''s worth I've got a Link 2000 that has been working perfectly since 2006. In our offline correspondence you keep mentioning charger/inverter. I forget what you have but seem to recall when you originally installed your Link 1000 you plugged the phone cable into your TrueCharge 20 or 40 charger, but that phone cable only works with a Freedom combined charger/inverter, which I don't think you have. Could you remind me what charger you do have? Thanks.
Stu Jackson, C34IA Secretary, C34 #224, 1986, SR/FK, M25 engine, Rocna 10 (22#)
[QUOTE=stu jackson c34;4162]John, for what it''s worth I've got a Link 2000 that has been working perfectly since 2006. In our offline correspondence you keep mentioning charger/inverter. I forget what you have but seem to recall when you originally installed your Link 1000 you plugged the phone cable into your TrueCharge 20 or 40 charger, but that phone cable only works with a Freedom combined charger/inverter, which I don't think you have. Could you remind me what charger you do have? Thanks.[/QUOTE]
I have a Xantrex Truecharge 20 amp. You are right, I had originally connected the cable to the charger but then disconnected it when I realized this charger doesn't work through the monitor.
SF Bay
1998 C36
At Stu's suggestion (he has the misfortune of having to work for a living, unlike me who lives off his work in part - social security), I am posting below some of the correspondences he sent me directly:
My comments are inserted in your text further down. In summary, I believe things are just fine with the Link and my email dated January 9th seems to remain appropriate. It said:
I'm still intrigued about your Link... The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that the GFCI that your charger is plugged into is the culprit. I think the Link ... is just fine. The charger is kicking out when you're not there because the GFCI is either faulty or something else is, on your AC side. Either the GFCI works just fine and is tripping FOR A VERY GOOD REASON, or it's faulty and should be replaced. If it's the former, then you have some homework to do. The least expensive solution, and perhaps the best detective work you can do it this: go to Ace Hardware and buy a new GFCI, put it in and see what happens. If the Link starts working, you have solved the problem. It could also be the plug and/or wiring from the charger to that plug. A loose wire on the charger?
And, I could add, maybe even the overall "quality" of your incoming shorepower for either or both of your pedestal and the entire dock power system.
In a message dated 1/24/2010 11:53:33 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, [email]1999wildcat@gmail.com[/email] writes:
On the weekend of Jan. 16-18, our boat partners had the boat. I went to the boat on Jan. 20, and this is what the monitor showed:
-2.9 AH
14.35 V
+0.1 A
I left the AC main on and returned to the boat just now. Both battery banks had been left off. Here's what the monitor showed:
-10.8 AH
13.55 V
0 A
1. "Both battery banks had been left off..." I need a bit more specificity here, since the 14.35 V seems to indicate the charger had just been turned on because that's the bulk and absorption voltage. Am I correct in understanding that there was BOTH no load on the batteries with the 1-2-B switch in the OFFposition, AND that the battery charger was ALSO not connected. You keep confusing, at least to me, the "AC Main" and the charger on or off. As I recall on your boat, you have an AC main breaker and a separate charger on or off on the AC side of your distribution panel( DP). I think I understand why you're using both phrases, because you can have the AC main on, and the charger breaker ON, but with the GFCI popping, the charger is disabled. Please cofnirm my understandings of your descriptions. Thanks.
2. The difference in amp hours is 10.8 less 2.9 or 7.9 amp hours in four days, right? January 20 to January 24. Let's call the 7.9 amp hours 8.0 amp hours, in four days or 2 amp hours PER DAY. The parasitic draw of the Link is less than 0.1 amps and, therefore, in one day, 24 hours, it'll eat up 2.4 amp hours per day. Actually that parasitic draw is a tad less since the 0.1 amp parasitic draw is the lowest resolution (number) that can show on the LED display, so the 2.4 amp hours is and can be considered for this exercise exactly the 2 amp hours per day that you have recorded. This is NOT a coincidence, it is a fact. I'm sure if you read the Link literature, you'll find this in the specs. 25 to 90 milliamps depending on the lighting and sleep mode, page 43 of the Link 20 manual: "specifications."
I turned on the house batteries (bank 1) and turned on several lights and the fridge.
the monitor showed -0.1 A I turned off the AC main and the monitor showed -8.2 A
This makes sense. Again, does "AC main" mean that the charger was also ON? The fridge draws 4.9 to 5.0 amps when running, and the lights are usually 1 to 1.5 amps each if you still have incandescent lamps instead of LEDS. So, what you are saying here is that with the charger OFF and the fridge and lights on you were DRAWING 8.2 amps. I'm with you so far.
I turned the AC main back on and found that this had tripped the breaker for the GFI that the charger/inverter is plugged into. When I reset this GFI the monitor showed +13 A.
This means that the charger, upon restart, was pumping out 21.2 amps (13 positive plus the minus 8.2 draw)
Help me recall your system: charger/inverter? I thought you just had the Truecharge under the saloon seat in front of the galley.
The tripped breaker is the part that really bothers me and I know it's driving you crazy. As I mentioned in the blue paragraph up top, I believe that this is what your problem is, not the LINK. If it was my boat, I'd do as I suggest in blue, and take it a step further and check every single AC wire from the inlet of your shorepower cord, etc. - the whole bloomin' AC wiring system. This breaker tripping should NOT be happening.
When I turned off the different lights and fridge, and turned off the AC main, the volts dropped steadily down to 13.65. This is the float voltage. I turned the AC main back on and the volts rose back up to about 14.40.
This is to be expected, because once you "restarted" your charger, it went into bulk phase, hence the 14.4 V, then it would back off to the absorption (14.4V with stadily reducing amperage) and float (lowering am[perage at dropping volatge to 13.4 or so V) stages. Both your charger manual and the Link manual explain the charging regimen quite well. The West Marine Advisor, here: ([url]http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/westadvisor/10001/-1...) explains it, too. If you haven't yet, why not download the Ample Power Primer under the Technical tab at [url]www.amplepower.com[/url], it's a great "battery care" reference source.
Any ideas?
Oh, yeah, you betcha. Fix the AC problem with and/or your GFCI and breakers.
It appears to me that your Link is working properly and recording properly. When the charger is knocked off line and doesn't charge when you're not there, the Link's parasitic load is exactly what is being recorded.
If you haven't already, become familiar with the charging stages of both voltage and amperage in the three distinct phases of battery charging. Know that whenever you "restart" your charger, for whatever reason, it will check the acceptance of the bank being charged, and if the bank is full, as yours was in your description, the charger will quickly "Step Through" the first two phases and go to float phase rather quickly. Some chargers have a minimum time for some of the steps, depends on your charger, perhaps reread the charger manual. As I recall you have a Truecharge 20?
I'm not a betting man, my wife says we can't afford it! But, in this case...
Once you've had a chance to check the AC system out, please let me know. Anytime you'd like to chat about this, please feel free to give me a ring.
But if it was my boat....
SF Bay
1998 C36
I was out at the boat today. I had left the AC main on. The monitor showed about -94.5 AH or so. I turned off the AC main, then turned it back on. It still showed not charging. I turned on the motor. The monitor showed it was charging at about 5 amps, but this gradually descended to a zero charge (over about a minute or so). The only explanation I can give to this is that the batteries were fully charged all the time. Any other thoughts?
SF Bay
1998 C36
Based upon what you wrote, John, it seems the batteries were fully charged. Both the AC battery charger in the AC circuit and the regulator in your engine-driven alternator circuit (two separate systems) sensed that no charging was needed.
A hydrometer to check the specific gravity of wet cell batteries would confirm that, too.
Duane Ising - Past Commodore (2011-2012)
s/v Diva Di
1999 Catalina 36 Hull #1777
Std rig; wing keel, M35B, Delta (45#)
Punta Gorda, FL
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/diva-di/
This seems to be saying what I've suspected all along: That the monitor is malfunctioning - showing negative amp hous when the batteries were fully charged. (Incidentally, I can't do a hydrometer check because the batteries are AGM's.)
SF Bay
1998 C36
John,
I have an old rule from my avionics maintenance days, years ago: If you have a wierd, weird symptom, then it is probably a ground problem..either a resistive ground instead of a solid connection, or a ground where there shouldn't be one, or no ground at all where there should be one. I have seen this time and time again, on aircraft electronics, in my neighbor's Lotus, in my home wiring, you name it.
I agree with Stu that your priority should be to solve your AC ground fault problem.
PS...an AC ground fault problem may be a warning of a dangerous situation on your boat! Nothing frightens me about a boat more than working on the AC system. Truly.
Larry Brandt
S/V High Flight #2109
Pacific Northwest, PDX-based
2002 C-36 mkII SR/FK M35B
But if the problem is on the AC side, then why is it that the monitor shows
-95 AH but over 13 volts, and when the motor is running it shows that it is not charging? and this is while the AC main switch is turned off.
John
SF Bay
1998 C36
John,
I am not sure if you are interested but, there is a fellow named Don Rock who does custom electrical installations on boats in your area. His company is S&R Marine, he lives aboard at Grand Marina next to you and has a shop in the big building next to the boat yard.
He has a reputation of being very reasonable and may be able to put his hand on the problem quickly. His phone number is 510-749-0761.
Cepheus dream
C36 MK I # 825
MK I Tech Editor No Mas
John, I agree, Don's a great guy. Why not print out this thread and show it to him. We know each other and as much background he can get to help you wouldn't hurt. Good luck.
Stu Jackson, C34IA Secretary, C34 #224, 1986, SR/FK, M25 engine, Rocna 10 (22#)
John,
I do not know this system but in thinking about it I am currious if you have an isolation device in your system such as an Echo charger. With such a device installed it may be that the battery monitor is not seeing the DC charge being applied to the bank as the isolation device like a diode would only show current flow in one direction. If the monitor leads were attached upstream of this device it may not see the charge.
Cepheus dream
C36 MK I # 825
MK I Tech Editor No Mas
So now, there's a new problem:
I have been having problems with my fuel gauge. About 9 months ago i changed the sending unit and that seemed to clear it up. Then I noticed that the gauge wasn't registering properly again. Fooling around with it, I seem to have tripped a breaker or blown a fuse or something. Anyway, now none of the gauges work. There is one fuse there behind the gauge panel. That fuse seemed fine.
Maybe rather than an electrician I need an exorcist.
(By the way, I called Don; he's busy but he gave me another guy's name.
SF Bay
1998 C36