Getting from cabin to start engine during filter changes

22 posts / 0 new
Last post
Coast Rider's picture
Coast Rider
Offline
Joined: 10/17/14
Posts: 43
Getting from cabin to start engine during filter changes

Hey guys. Here's a stupid question. I'm planning to change fuel and oil filters for first time since getting my boat last August. It's almost impossible to climb out of the cabin with the steps and engine cover removed in order to check for leaks after installing filters by starting the engine. I suppose I could get a regular ladder, but how do I make emergency fuel filter changes out to sea. I suppose I could climb out of the bow berth hatch, but this is impractible. Also how often does a fuel filter clog while out to sea?

Joe Lucido
1986 Catalina 36
Hull # 0625
M-25 Universal diesel
Oceanside, CA

clennox's picture
clennox
Offline
Joined: 3/31/14
Posts: 212

Coastrider,
That's the million dollar question. Depends on how clean your tank/fuel are. One thing for sure is it will clog at the worst possible time. I have seen filters last an hour and some can go for years. One of the best possible mods is to add a vacuum gauge to the suck side of your fuel system. This way you can see when the filter is starting to clog. If you are having problems with the filters, get the tank cleaned or just put a new one in. On another boat I changed 5 filters, pulled the tank twice spent a ton of time before just putting in a new tank. Never changed a filter in 8 years after that. Maybe about 400 hours. I did also add the gage. Keep your tank full between trips. As for climbing in and out without the steps. I use the main halyard and stand on the the exhaust. I plan to add a second filter with a valve that I can get to on my boat. Might even move my vacuum gage to the cockpit. I kinda view this gage as important as the oil pressure and temp gage. When the filter clogs it will be a bad time and place, the aft cabin will also be full of crap.
This is my 2 cents

Chuck Lennox
97 MKii Ventura Ca
Island Girl Hull #1611

John Connally's picture
John Connally
Offline
Joined: 12/28/08
Posts: 14

Ha! That's a good one. My boat is an '86 MK I with an M25. If your boat is like mine, maybe this will work. What I do is grasp both sides of the companionway hatch coaming (on top about midway forward) then lower myself down using my arms onto the running engine by stepping with my left foot onto the radiator cap. While still hanging, I put just enough weight on my left foot to steady myself then step over the engine and place my right foot onto the cabin sole then let go from above. Watch your shoe laces and be wary of loose cuffs on long pants. I've done this many times in port without fail but I won't try it at sea unless its a dire emergency. One day, I'll install a remote glow plug and start switch at the engine compartment. If you single hand (like me), it is the only way to make use of the compression release. The remote start is probably the best overall solution. If your fuel filter clogs, chances are it will be either the fuel lift pump filter or the secondary but not at the engine. I've never had to deal with clogged filters because I use fuel stabilizer (BioBor) and periodically get the fuel polished (helps clean the tank). In port, I often just let the fuel lift pump run for an hour to circulate and "polish" the fuel. I change all the filters about once a year and try to keep the tank topped off to reduce condensation.

Regards,
John

Channel Islander's picture
Channel Islander
Offline
Joined: 10/8/11
Posts: 378

Great advice from the Governor.

I avoid stepping on the radiator cap as it can damage its pressure seal. Try to step on the exhaust manifold instead. It may be hot.

VERY be careful with doing this on a running engine, especially at sea!

On the Mk 1 I find I can get one foot on the port corner of the galley counter, next to where the steps go, and then step across to the sink, traveling in space two or three feet above the engine, using the open hatch handle to swing on. 

Same on the way up, which is what you mentioned.

Another thing I do is to rotate the engine cover to starboard when I take it off, that is, next to the Nav table. You can get to almost everything on the engine that way (without moving it all the way out of the way) and this allows you to rotate it partially back into place, covering the spinning belt/pulleys, while you make the exit to/entry from topside I described. You can NOT step on the engine cover when it is not secured, but it makes stepping over the running engine to the galley sink counter, and stepping down from the sink counter, a whole lot safer, and the cover rotates in and out of the temporary, belt-covering position in a second.

As others have said, your fuel filters will clog when you are in a heavy seaway -- it stirs up the goop. So keep the system clean!

  • I also use ​Biobor and haven't had any problems since starting it.
  • Keeping the fuel tank full reduces condensation in its empty space; condensation is water, which is where the bacteria grow, Less water = less goop.
  • I recommend moving the Racor filter to somewhere much more accessible than the stock location under the port side dinette seat. I moved mine (and the lift pump) to the space under the galley sink. There'a an article about this by Tom Soko in the Members' section.
  • Don't forget your Facet fuel lift pump has a filter on the bottom that needs cleaning periodically.
  • Get a second Facet pump; they are cheap and easy to replace if one fails.

- nick

Nick Tonkin
*Former* Website Administrator, C36/375IA
*Former* owner, C36 tr/fk #255, Santa Barbara, CA

neilroach
Offline
Joined: 2/4/10
Posts: 126

I bought a set of the brackets which hold the top of the stairs to the bulkhead at the top and mounted them about 6 inches below the existing brackets. With the engine housing removed the stairs hang from those brackets with the feet on the deck. The back of the steps have sufficient clearance from the engine to allow it to be run at the dock or at sea. I never liked stepping on that running motor.

Neil Roach
"Crewless"
1992 36, Mark I
Hull # 1174
Seattle

newguy's picture
newguy
Offline
Joined: 8/1/11
Posts: 408

Like many, I've found myself stepping on a running engine, using the thermostat housing as a step.  My biggest fear is slipping or getting a dangling shoelace caught in the belt.  Not a pretty outcome to be sure.  Much better would be to invest in some brackets....

This is now going to be my #1 project come spring commissioning.  Thank-you Neil!  If you recall where you got the brackets and model numbers, that would be most welcome.

Nick Caballero
Retired C36/375IA Mk II Technical Editor

neilroach
Offline
Joined: 2/4/10
Posts: 126

I got lucky and saw a pair of the "wall" bracket at a used marine parts store. Cheap. As I didn't have to buy the ladder side, really cheap. I think I have seen pairs of those brackets at Catalina Direct. Those were, of course, new and had the ladder side also. Faced with that, I would probably make something out of maple or birch or even a dense plastic. Other materials should work fine as these brackets are not holding a great deal of weight, as their purpose is just to keep the ladder up against the bulkhead.
I would set the ladder in place with the motor cover removed to make sure that you get good clearance from the motor. On my boat the back of the ladder clears as close as one inch at one place. As far as your shoe laces go, your shoes will still be getting fairly close to the fan belt while climbing the ladder, so even though the footing is much more secure, check those shoe laces before you go up on deck.
 

Neil Roach
"Crewless"
1992 36, Mark I
Hull # 1174
Seattle

alfricke's picture
alfricke
Offline
Joined: 4/14/09
Posts: 90

After Jubilee's (Mk II #1867) engine faltered and quit in extremely lumpy seas (no wind) after having rounded Pt. Conception heading north...I discovered that a second electric fuel pump is a great idea. I put this pump on the engine wall near the pump mounted on the engine. It has an on/ off switch at the engine and is rigged to bypass the regular pump when I want to. This permits a singlehander to bleed the engine from below decks and of course the second pump can be a back up as well. This also eliminates the "how do I get back on deck" problem to some degree.

 

Al Fricke
S/V Jubilee San Francisco Bay
Catalina 36' MkII  #1867
Universal 35-B

John Connally's picture
John Connally
Offline
Joined: 12/28/08
Posts: 14

Hi Al,

Did your engine quit because the plastic filter inside the fuel lift pump clogged or did the lift pump fail? Also, I am curious to know if the M25 will keep running without the lift pump. Seems like it should. Does anyone know? I could experiment by starting the engine then shutting off the ignition (i.e. push in the on/off plunger at the engine control panel) and see what happens. However, I've got one of those Balmer ARS-5 voltage regulators which needs the ignition switch on in order to operate. It is unknown what happens when the engine runs and it is off; unregulated voltage output to the batteries I suppose.

Regards,
John

pkeyser's picture
pkeyser
Offline
Joined: 5/18/13
Posts: 668

John-
Our former boat (a 1986 C30) had an M25 Universal. When the electric fuel pump died- the engine would not start or run.
Paul

Paul & Wendy Keyser
"First Light"
Rye NH
2005 C36 MKII #2257
Wing, M35B

alfricke's picture
alfricke
Offline
Joined: 4/14/09
Posts: 90

Hi back to you John,

My engine quit because the main filter clogged (Racor). Symptom was classic...started faltering/revving at cruising RPM, but would idle (initially). I can attest that when she quit all together out of sight of land with no wind, the silence was deafening.

The electric fuel pump on Jubilee is placed after the filter, so it should not get clogged itself. I do not think that either the Universal 25 or 35 have mechanical fuel pumps like is found on larger engines.

Al #1867

Al Fricke
S/V Jubilee San Francisco Bay
Catalina 36' MkII  #1867
Universal 35-B

John Connally's picture
John Connally
Offline
Joined: 12/28/08
Posts: 14

Hello All,

Regarding my last post, I contacted Balmer tech support about the ARS-5 being off while the engine is running. Looks like there is no issue. The alternator will produce no output current and (I suppose) floats at battery voltage in the same state as if the engine were not running. I guess I can do the experiment.

My question to Balmer Tech Support:

Dear Tech Support,

I have an ARS-5 regulator installed on a Leese Neville Marine Alternator running off a diesel engine. Can you tell me what happens to the voltage regulator when the ignition is turned off and the diesel continues to run? I am specifically interested in knowing if the ARS-5 will be damaged and what output if any the alternator produces. Assume the red wire (battery +) is always at 12 volts and the brown wire (attached to ignition switch) is zero. The engine RPM would be about 1500. Under these conditions, what is the voltage on the blue wire and will the alternator produce any unregulated voltage or current?

Here is the reply:

When the brown wire drops to zero the ARS-5 will shut down. The blue wire will drop to zero and the alternator will also shut down and produce no voltage or current. This will not harm the regulator or alternator.

Best Regards,
Thomas Pusateri

Warranty & Repairs

Mon - Fri 7AM - 3:30 PM PST
18930 59th Ave NE
Arlington, Wa, 98223 USA
Ph: 360-465-6100 X314 Fax 360-435-3210

MitchMan406's picture
MitchMan406
Offline
Joined: 12/31/11
Posts: 71

Here are some thoughts on the old filter-clogging issue.

It is not a cowinky dink that fuel filters clog in rough seas.  
They clog because tanks are full of algae growth - and, when the fuel tank happens upon rough seas, the fuel sloshes about and stirs up the growth in the tank.

The algae, which can range form slime to tofu-looking stuff (which my wife eats on occasion at fancy eateries) gets sucked up through the fuel pickup tube and clogs the filters.

When I bought my boat, I cut holes in the top of my tanks to inspect - and sure enough - there was 1/2 - 3/4" layer of moss-like algae in the tank.
I thought to myself - since I had a 450 mile trip to make - that I may want to clean out the tank and replace all the filters and add some BIOCIDE to the tank of fresh fuel so I could avoid the telling and re-telling of a story that would begin, "Well, I got into rough seas and then I lost my diesel engine...".

The engine never missed a beat on my trip.
I bet you know what's in your wallet. Likewise, you'd better know what's NOT inside you tank.

I recently had a diesel leak and I opted to replace the tank rather than repairing it.  When I opened the tank to inspect the inside, it was as clean as the day I sealed it up after scrubbing, scraping, and vacuuming out some really weird stuff that I'm am sure my wife would eat at some of the over-priced restaurants I am forced to attend.

Diesel if left for long periods will grow a forest in your diesel tank. 

-Clean out your tank.
​-Add stabilizer AND BIOCIDE to your fuel.
-Check your fuel cap and o-ring.
-Replace often.
-Repeat.

And stay away form tofu.

Mitch

1986 Catalina 36 MKI 
S/V "Blessing"
Kema, TX
Hull: #584
M25 w/ Oberdorfer Conversion
 

benethridge's picture
benethridge
Offline
Joined: 5/13/09
Posts: 446

In my experience, the stabilizer and biocide don't really eliminate the algae and/or sludge.  The reason I say that is that I keep two spare 2.5 gallon fuel jugs onboard, and each time I fill them, I add doses of the best brands of stabilizer and biocide....but each time I refill them at the pump (every couple of months), I notice algae and/or sludge in the bottom of the jugs. 
 
It's often stuck tightly to the bottom of the jugs, so this would fit with the scenario of rough seas knocking it loose and causing a filter clog.

In five years, I've never had a fuel clog, but before I go offshore, I'm going to have the fuel tank thoroughly cleaned.

Ben Ethridge
Miami, FL
1984 MK1 Hull# 263

HowLin's picture
HowLin
Offline
Joined: 1/12/12
Posts: 355

[quote=benethridge]In my experience, the stabilizer and biocide don't really eliminate the algae and/or sludge.  The reason I say that is that I keep two spare 2.5 gallon fuel jugs onboard, and each time I fill them, I add doses of the best brands of stabilizer and biocide....but each time I refill them at the pump (every couple of months), I notice algae and/or sludge in the bottom of the jugs. 
 .[/quote] 

That's true Ben - because the biocide does not eliminate the microbes, it only KILLS them.  Therefore they die and sink to the bottom...  The answer is to keep clean fuel, without water (from a leaky filler or condensation) - as these microbe critters live in the interface between any water in the tank and the fuel floating on top.

---- Howard & Linda Matwick ----

--- S/V "Silhouette" - Nanaimo, BC ----

--- 1999  C36 MkII  #1776 M35BC ---

larryr
Offline
Joined: 4/8/10
Posts: 12

Back to the original question: I remove the step, lift up the engine cover , rotate it 90 degrees and place it in front of the stove.  I use the engine cover as a platform ( step ) to get to the cockpit. Easy.

1994 MK I

Coast Rider's picture
Coast Rider
Offline
Joined: 10/17/14
Posts: 43

Use the engine cover as a step....This worked like a charm for me. So easy. Thanks.

Joe Lucido
1986 Catalina 36
Hull # 0625
M-25 Universal diesel
Oceanside, CA

Channel Islander's picture
Channel Islander
Offline
Joined: 10/8/11
Posts: 378

I confirm that the M25 engine will not run for very long with no power to the Facet fuel pump. The reason it has one, I suppose.

Nick Tonkin
*Former* Website Administrator, C36/375IA
*Former* owner, C36 tr/fk #255, Santa Barbara, CA

John Connally's picture
John Connally
Offline
Joined: 12/28/08
Posts: 14

Bummer, I was hoping you really didn't need the electrical system functioning once the engine was running. I guess all modern diesels are that way. Anyway, it is a good point to keep in mind and  thank you for sharing that information.

A quick check of the M25 owners manual specifically states the electric lift pump is necessary. Models 15 and 40 have mechanical charge pumps so (except for starting) those should keep running without electrical power. The bleeding procedure is more involved. I wager Catalina and most other manufacturers stayed away from that type of engine because without some pressure in the fuel lines they were often hard to start.

Regards,
John

Maine Sail
Offline
Joined: 2/26/10
Posts: 324

In answer to the original question, a remote start switch.... No need to climb to the cockpit as throttle, shut down and starting can all be performed right at the engine, if you have a simple remote start switch. It also helps to have a switch to disable the annoying alarm while working on the engine. Simply leave the key ON and turn the battery switch OFF until you need juice to start the motor. No climbing in and out... You could also hardwire one into the engine bay in about 5 minutes using a simple momentary Cole Hersee start switch.......

-Maine Sail
https://www.marinehowto.com/

 

John Connally's picture
John Connally
Offline
Joined: 12/28/08
Posts: 14

The remote start was my conclusion also; see post #3. You also have the advantage of making use of the compression release (assuming the engine is equipped with one). The M25 has one and the manual specifically states that it's purpose is for starting with a weak battery (or when extremely cold). Seems like that could be very handy. I haven't tried it, however.

Regards,
John

clennox's picture
clennox
Offline
Joined: 3/31/14
Posts: 212

Mainsail
That's so simple, it's brilliant. I was getting carried away making this secondly start panel.
Thank you!

Chuck Lennox
97 MKii Ventura Ca
Island Girl Hull #1611

Log in or register to post comments