That's the setup we added this spring. Not sure what the measurement above the spreaders is. So far, it's been great.

Rick,
When I added radar earlier this year I decided to mount it on the mast. Since it would require dropping the mast, it made sense at the same time to replace all of the mast wiring and the mast electrical. I added a new vhf antennae, led anchor light, new running light and led spreader lights. I also replaced the original wind speed unit with a Raymarine.
My mast only has one conduit but we were able to get everything into the one; it was a squeeze though. If I were to do it again I would add one. While it was down, I polished and waxed everything, added a new main halyard sheave and added some bird spikes.
Radar mount and installation were all pretty straight forward. The cable is slightly smaller with the HD and inside the boat, it is like an ethernet cable. Easy to run. If you have more than 1 conduit it may be possible to run it while the mast is up however, there is a very tight turn where it has come out the base of the mast

Just to add a different perspective, I mounted mine on a Garhauer mast from the stern.

Not as high as putting it on the mast but I also have my GPS and Sirius wx antennas up there so they all get better reception. The mast allows the antenna to be angle adjusted for heel, and it came with a pulley system that is removable to assist in mounting the outboard on the dinghy (at least I don't remember paying extra for that). Having the antennas on this mast allow for maintenence without having to climb the mast or take it down..... I polish the radar casing every so often to keep grunge from effceting the signal..

[QUOTE=RPowers;14151]Hi Bruce,

Did you install it yourself, or did you hire a guy?

Do your Radar wires run into the mast through a new hole drilled, and how did you run the wires down the mast?

-Rick[/QUOTE]

Don't think that matters. I hired a Raymarine certified technican to install chartplotter, radar, AIS, Sirius weather, autopilot, and LifeTag MOB system.

The moron took out the cable to the masthead wind instrument when he drilled the holes for the radar, but never checked the wiring until after the mast was up, so it had to be taken down again.

That was in the spring, about 18 months ago. I've had a total of about 2 weeks of having everything work correctly since then. The chartplotter has been in for repair twice and I've had the radar head fail 4 times. Right now the boat sits without instruments. I'm two seasons into a 4 year warranty and still don't have anything. I've switched technicans, thinking it might be them but still having problems. I'm not sure if it's the marine technicans I've used or just Raymarine.

For what it's worth, I got a pivot mount for the radar. A lot of people only use it when motoring in the fog, but I do a lot of nite sailing and sometimes in heavy weather, so I thought I'd be using it while heeling. I had not realized how poorly it can see when there are waves. Small boats disappear in waves and large ships can only be seen relatively close.

One positive for mast mount is that it gets it up higher so you can use the full range. I have a 4 kW and the few days it was working I could see ships at 38 miles away and the opposite shoreline of Lake Michigan at 54 miles away.

Rick, your installation challenges don't begin and end with the mast. You'll still have to get the radar cable back to the helm, which is an equally difficult task IMHO.

I personally prefer a mast mount for several reason: primarily radiation safety, but also to keep the boat better looking (less clutter astern). There is some minor advantage in range that comes with mounting up high, but that is, frankly, a negligable advantage. If you do mount on the mast you'll someday have to cut the cable to pull the stick. The manuals say not to do that, but the fact is that it can be done provided care is taken to reconnect the wiring carefully to maintain shielding in the same way it was before you cut it.

My radar is located a few inches above the spreaders. The issue with that location, as you've already determined, is running the cabling. Where exactly you mount on the mast isn't too important electronically, just so that you don't mount exactly at a height where the beam can be deflected by the metal spreaders or at the height of your radar reflector. A more important consideration for mast mount is structural: just where you want the weight of the scanner to be and where you want the mounting holes to be drilled.

But I have to ask, just WHY do you want a 24" scanner??? It's more money, more weight, and more dirt and wear when the sails drag across it when you tack or jibe. An 18" scanner is entirely adequate on a boat like ours. Save the money, and save placing all that weight up there. And even with an 18" scanner I still had to put a patch on my 135 jib.

Except for a propagation anomaly, there is no way on god's green earth that an X-band marine radar on a Catalina 36 can see ships at any range beyond 20 miles, even IF everything is operating perfectly. Here's the formula: 1.22 x Sq Root of height of radar PLUS 1.22 x sq root height of target = radar range in NM. Example: My radar is at 30 ft, thus 1.22 x sq rt 30 = 1.22 x 5.48 = 6.7nm, PLUS 1.22 x sq rt 144 ft (assuming the Exxon Valdez is 144 ft high) = 14.6 nm. Thus the farthest range at which a C36 mast-mounted radar can see the Exxon Valdez would be 6.7nm + 14.6 NM = 21.3 nm *theoretical* max range. In practice, theoretical is never attained due to enough of the target needing to be visible above the horizon to echo back the signal. With my 2 kw 24 nm Raymarine radar, up in the corner of the display, I can see mountain tops, which proves that range is NOT about transmitter power. Actually, you'll be lucky to see large ships beyond 15nm with any currently sold marine radar that is suitable for our boat, whether 18 or 24 inch, whether 2 kw or 4 kw. So save your money, is my advice, and get an 18" scanner.

I don't have a gimbaled mount but a recent article in the British pub Yachting Monthly convinced me that it does make a difference.

And lastly, give consideration to a stern pole to keep the install easier - if you use a stern pole just make sure the radar is about 2 feet higher than the highest anyone can reach above their heads in the cockpit to minimize radiation exposure.

And then finally, once installed take a course on how to use it. There is MUCH more to proper radar operation than people assume. The Navigation Rules require radar to be used knowledgeably and properly; your boat deserves it, and your family and crew deserve a skipper that knows how to use it properly...ESPECIALLY in San Francisco Bay and coastal California waters.

(Disclosure: I am a radar instructor for Starpath Navigation, see [URL="http://www.starpath.com"]http://www.starpath.com[/URL].)

Incidentally, if anyone asks why a radar on the C36 cannot see large ships beyond about 15 NM just tell them the real answer...that the diameter of the earth is just too small!

(Which reminds me of the answer I used to give to customers back when I was selling $400k aviation satellite communications. When asked why there was always that annoying delay in receiving the speech from the other person, I said it was because the speed of light was just too slow. That is, it was due to the time it took the signal at the speed of light to go from the sender up to a geostationary satellite and then back down to the airplane.)

[QUOTE=LCBrandt;14165]

But I have to ask, just WHY do you want a 24" scanner??? It's more money, more weight, and more dirt and wear when the sails drag across it when you tack or jibe. An 18" scanner is entirely adequate on a boat like ours. Save the money, and save placing all that weight up there. And even with an 18" scanner I still had to put a patch on my 135 jib.

Except for a propagation anomaly, there is no way on god's green earth that an X-band marine radar on a Catalina 36 can see ships at any range beyond 20 miles, even IF everything is operating perfectly. Here's the formula: 1.22 x Sq Root of height of radar PLUS 1.22 x sq root height of target = radar range in NM. Example: My radar is at 30 ft, thus 1.22 x sq rt 30 = 1.22 x 5.48 = 6.7nm, PLUS 1.22 x sq rt 144 ft (assuming the Exxon Valdez is 144 ft high) = 14.6 nm. Thus the farthest range at which a C36 mast-mounted radar can see the Exxon Valdez would be 6.7nm + 14.6 NM = 21.3 nm *theoretical* max range. In practice, theoretical is never attained due to enough of the target needing to be visible above the horizon to echo back the signal. With my 2 kw 24 nm Raymarine radar, up in the corner of the display, I can see mountain tops, which proves that range is NOT about transmitter power. Actually, you'll be lucky to see large ships beyond 15nm with any currently sold marine radar that is suitable for our boat, whether 18 or 24 inch, whether 2 kw or 4 kw. So save your money, is my advice, and get an 18" scanner. [/quote]

Bingo!!!! No need for anything more than the GMR-18HD..

[QUOTE=LCBrandt;14165]I don't have a gimbaled mount but a recent article in the British pub Yachting Monthly convinced me that it does make a difference. [/quote]

I read that too and found it a little misleading. We owned a C-36 with a Questus back stay mount. The performance on our next boat with a mast mounted dome was far superior. We now have a stern pole and I HATE the performance especially in the open ocean. Give me a mast mounted dome every day of the week!

Keep in mind that when sailing in the open ocean swell & wave height can take away from radar dome height. With a stern pole you have already shorted yourself by 10+ feet or more of scanner height. We had many instances with the Questus in big seas where we lost targets altogether in the trough of a wave. This is a royal PITA having to reaquire a lost target at a wave peak then lose it again. In bays a stern pole works fine but I do not like them for open ocean sailing, which we do a lot of.

[QUOTE=LCBrandt;14165]And then finally, once installed take a course on how to use it. There is MUCH more to proper radar operation than people assume. The Navigation Rules require radar to be used knowledgeably and properly; your boat deserves it, and your family and crew deserve a skipper that knows how to use it properly...ESPECIALLY in San Francisco Bay and coastal California waters.

(Disclosure: I am a radar instructor for Starpath Navigation, see [URL="http://www.starpath.com"]http://www.starpath.com[/URL].)[/QUOTE]

Amen!! Perhaps 80-85% of the boats I work on the owners have no clue how to use radar. When I fire them up they are sooooooo poorly tuned that they'd be lucky to acquire anything...

I would add that the best way to learn to use it is NOT when the fog rolls in but on multiple clear days. Play with it in clear weather and make sure your range tuning is correct and that you know how to adjust it for sea state, rain etc. etc...

And for everyone, even those without radar, PLEASE add a radar reflector!!!!! Almost had a collision yesterday with a Cape Dory 25 who barely had a radar signature. I spotted him with about the same return as a lobster buoy, noted that this very small target appeared to be moving, blasted my fog horn and tried to hail them. I had already made a course adjustment to avoid collision and at the last minute they saw us and made one too but in error.

Of course the owner had:

No reflector
Not monitoring VHF 16, [B]WHICH IS FEDERAL LAW[/B]
No running lights
No fog signals

Vis was about 60 yards... Ignorance is bliss I guess....

Rick,
Listen to what Larry and MaineSail have to say. They know what they are talking about. Let me add one suggestion to those already posted. If (when?) you mount your radome on the mast, get the sturdiest mount you can find. I am a huge fan of Edson gear, but I am not a fan of their radar mast mounts, nor any similar ones made of cast aluminum. It is too easy for them to get bent and/or broken. I've seen several of each. When I installed radar on Julandra a number of years ago, I did a bunch of research and chose the Kato Marine mount. Each one is custom made (you have to send them a template of your mast and the radar model number) of SS tubing, and VERY sturdy. The welds are all well done. I was able to hand on it and bounce up and down. Their design includes a protective ring around the radome, to protect both the radome and the jib. It's a beautiful piece of gear. One more thing. Make sure you mount it above your steaming/deck light. If you mount it above the spreaders it will be. A buddy of mine bought a boat with the radome mounted above his spreaders, but below the steaming/deck light. You guessed it. The radome casts a perfect shadow to completely black out the foredeck, making the deck light useless. Hope this helps.

Just to clarify one point made above... Federal law does [B]not[/B] require all boat to have a vhf or to maintain a watch on ch 16. FCC regulations require boaters [I]having VHF radios to maintain a watch on either VHF ch 16 or 9, [COLOR="Red"]whenever the radio is turned on or not communicting with another station[/I][/COLOR], implying that the VHF is not mandated to be on under the Rules. I agree its stupid for anyone to be out in restricted visabilty and not have their radio on, but as noted, many do not and you are probably safer assuming the other boat wont.

An interesting point about RADAR.... of course every vessel is required to maintain a proper look-out at all times using eyes, ears and [I]any other means available[/I]. This has been taken to mean RADAR when and if you have it and [I]when it is in working condition[/I]. Nothing is said about visibility conditioins so if you run into, or are run into, another vessel, even in clear visability, technically you should have had your RADAR on. I suppose that's why you see so many large power boats with their RADAR antennas turning even on clear days.

[QUOTE=pierview;14178]Just to clarify one point made above... Federal law does [B]not[/B] require all boat to have a vhf or to maintain a watch on ch 16. FCC regulations require boaters [I]having VHF radios to maintain a watch on either VHF ch 16 or 9, [COLOR="Red"]whenever the radio is turned on or not communicting with another station[/I][/COLOR], implying that the VHF is not mandated to be on under the Rules. I agree its stupid for anyone to be out in restricted visabilty and not have their radio on, but as noted, many do not and you are probably safer assuming the other boat wont.

[/QUOTE]

Might want to check out the navigation rules. The USCG has a different take and the rules are pretty clear I also just checked the current FCC doc and found that for voluntary vessels it too states that you must maintain watch on VHF 16.....

From the Coast Guard:

"In general, any vessel equipped with a VHF marine radiotelephone (whether voluntarily or required to) [B]must maintain a watch on channel 16 (156.800 MHz) whenever the radiotelephone is not being used to communicate.[/B]"

[URL="http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=mtWatch"]http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=mtWatch[/URL]

Whatever the letter of the law may be, I'd challenge anyone to try to monitor channel 16 on a weekend on the northern Chesapeake Bay. It'll drive you insane. [I]Everyone[/I] feels the need to transmit at 25 watts, so you get to hear every idiot within 20 miles, even if they're calling a marina that's a mile away. Trying to pick out a distress call becomes impossible as you soon dismiss the radio as background noise and ignore it. I've heard the Coast Guard having great difficulty trying to deal with an emergency while idiots continue to transmit and stomp all over them, ignoring the rule to turn the radio on, listen to see if anyone else is on the channel before transmitting.

Since the FCC doesn't have the means to enforce the rules for proper radio usage, it has reduced their effectiveness and almost relegated them to toy status like a CB radio in the 70s. Being retired now, I avoid weekends like the plague and always have my radio on while underway, scanning 16, 13 and one other as needed. But on a weekend, whole other story. Must drive the Coast Guard personnel crazy trying to listen to that all day.

[QUOTE=pierview;14178] I suppose that's why you see so many large power boats with their RADAR antennas turning even on clear days.[/QUOTE]

I thought they just did that to make sure everyone could see all the toys they have on board! But it's hard to notice that when you are death rolling in their always massive wake.

When they stopped making people take a written federal test and getting a ship radio licence it guaranteed that VHF was going to be the new CB. Stupid short term thinking. I pay $35 a year to maintain my station licence and have had a restricted radiotelephone licence since 1975 when you had to appear before a federal tester and do a written and practical test. It reinforces the serious business of the VHF whereas now with virtually no rules it is degenerating into a social networking tool and is hardly useful at times. I can't imagine how bad it must be in boat heavy areas. Why people choose to abuse the VHF is beyond me, just reflective I guess of society in general these days, nobody really cares about the other guy. Just like the massive wake guys.
[/end rant]

the dreaded thread drift has occurred!!!

[QUOTE=RPowers;14110]Hello fellow 36'ers,

I currently have a Garmin GPS 740s with sonar and love it.

...
-Rick[/QUOTE]

Rick -
Not to overly hijack the thread, but curious how the 740s worked out for you in terms of any interference with the compass. We've had discussions on this subject before -- see
[url]http://www.c36ia.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1129&highlight=garmin+740s[...
-- and so I shied away from it, but am still contemplating it for sometime in the future (I now am using a used 10 year old JRC radar I bought from a fellow C36IA member via our site's classified ad section). Where did you mount the unit in relation to the compass?

A drawback of using COG as a pseudo-heading input to the radar is that when you're being affected by current and have selected the Overlay mode, the radar image will not be aligned with the map. If no current both should overlay properly.