Well I finally got my boat down to Florida from Norfolk Virginia, and I thought I would share some thoughts on my experiences gained from the trip. First the caveats: Let me say the title is a bit of a misnomer, because I never really went farther than about 200 miles offshore. Most of the offshore stuff was within about 20-75 miles. Let me also say that mostof my sailing has been limited to say-sails and a dozen or so overnight sails throughout the Hawaiian islands. As such, this was the longest passage I had done, but I had amore experienced friend aboard for the offshore part to help out.
I moved to Florida from Virginia back in July, and because I had the time, I figured I would try sailing the boat down. Understanding it was the wrong direction given the time of year, I decided to go for anyway. I had to get it down somehow and I figured it would be better sailing it than throwing it on a truck, the forecast looked conducive so I went for it. By conducive, I mean safe. The winds were forecast to be from the south so I knew I would be beating to windward for the majority of the trip.
I'll start by saying I don't regret the decision to sail it at all. I am certain I would have made it given enough time, but my work schedule caught up with me so I had to haul out in Charleston, but more on that later.
The first 4 days were solo along the ICW from Norfolk to Beaufort, NC, and I had a GREAT time. For 4 days it was just me and my boat. I motored 90% of the time, never touching bottom (fin keel), and I enjoyed the changing scenery along the way. The water had gone from the greenish grey characteristic of the Hampton River to an aqua marine more remniscent of the ocean sailing I used to do in Hawaii. The boat performed flawlessly.
In Beufort I bought an EPIRB and installed a new autopilot while I waited to pick up a buddy who was coming to join me for the offshore portion of the trip. A couple days later we were on our way.
This is where things began to get frustrating. The winds averaged 3-5mph, and when they did pick up at all they were coming dead on the nose so I'd spend a day on a tack that wasn't very effective at getting us down to Florida. This all lasted for 5 days. We would sail 160 degrees for a morning, and then hit the Gulf Stream and have to tack to an obnoxious 280, almost erasing our earlier progress. It seemed the wind would shift to an even more unfavorable direction with every new tack. Needless to say it was slow going.
There were 1 or 2 nights (I have no idea why it would get crazy at night, but be perfectly calm in the day- Murphy's Law working against us I guess) of 30-35 knot winds, and surprise surprise- it was right off the nose. Seas picked up, and we ended up beating into square waves for hours on end. The only good thing to come of that was we made up some lost ground on those nights.
Anywhow, long story short, my work schedule got the best of me, and I had to put in at a yard in Charleston, SC for a few months. While the progress was slow, we were making it; and I have no doubt the boat would have made it the whole way given enough time. Unfortunately, it was just the wrong time of year to head south (it just wasn't feasable to coordinate my move with the more favorable time of year for the trip so I tried my best to make due).
Now, enough rambling and on to the point. I am finally able to put my finger on why people say our boats aren't really suited for offshore sailing.
1. The bilge is too shallow. We remained on the same tack (sometimes for an entire day) and because the bilge was so shallow, we would, at times get some nasty bilge water above the cabin sole. Because of the heeling angle, the bilge pump wasn't able to do too much about it. I had to check every couple hours, and hand pump it out. I would also sponge up some of the excess. Not a show stopper, but it became a big PITA (especially at night in high seas). It also made the cabin disgusting.
2. Battery bank is too small for sustained offshore sailing. I know this varies for everyone depending on their setup, but I have a 2 battery house bank, and 1 for starting. Using the chartplotter for a total 15 minutes a day, nav lights at night, the autopilot 8-10 hours a day, and the water pump every once in a while, I ran the engine about 2 hours a day to keep the bats working. In retrospect, a much bigger battery bank would be handy (even for coastal cruising- which is what I considered this trip to be). A broblem I encountered was, due to the angle of heel I could only run the engine on a certain tack otherwise I would risk sucking up crap from the bottom of the tank if it got lower than about half full. Again, not a deal breaker, just another annoyance.
3. As much as it pains me to admit it, I think the boat is slightly under-built. During some of our bigger seas I noticed the cabin roof separating from the bulkhead above the nav station by about 1/2 inch. In fact, the boat torsioned enough that I have to reseal ALL of the fixed windows. In fairness, the boat was built in 1987, and they haven't been touched; so who knows- if they had been resealed in the past 10 years, maybe the sealant would have been a little more flexible.
I will caveat all that by saying at no point was I concerned about the seaworthiness of the boat. All of these issues were relatively minor, but they did add up to become some serious annoyances while underway. So there it is: I think the boat can be safe on an offshore, but there are so many little things about the set up that I think it becomes a huge hassle. I was out for 5 days and 4 nights, and I don't think the battery bank, water capacity, or fuel capacity could have given us much more than that (I had a lot of extra fuel and water strapped to the deck as well), and given the torsioning of the hull and deck I don't think it would have been good for the structure of the boat to keep pressing forward unless there was a wind shift.
I ended up putting the boat on a semi and shipping it the rest of the way because my new work schedule won't permit me to take the 20 days I think it would take to get it around to Tampa by sail.
I have always struggled to learn exactly why these boats don't make the best offshore cruisers (besides the too general "they're not built for it"). Now I have discovered some specific items, and I thought I would share them with anyone interested in hearing them. Most of these issues can be overcome by bulking certain things up, or adding batteries, or reconfiguring the fuel tank, or sticking to down-wind cruising only; but at some point it may be easier to buy a different boat.
I'll keep ol' girl, but I'm going to stick to day-sailing, overnights, or strictly down-wing offshore stuff.
By the way, if you ever have to ship your boat, I HIGHLY recommend Joule Yacht Transport. They are FANTSTIC, and very reasonable on price. Can't say enough good about them.
Tobaygo
1987 Catalina 36 MKI
#660
Tampa Bay, FL
I am very, very far from an expert on boat construction or on sailing in general. However, I wonder whether some of the problems you experienced were not related to the age of the boat or other factors. If you look at the video I posted (under the "sailing" section of this forum) you will see that we went out in similar conditions - winds gusting up to 40 knots, seas up to around 10 feet. To my knowledge, we didn't experience the problems you describe, especially the cabin separation.
In general, though, I think it's probably true that the Catalina was not built to be a true offshore boat. For one thing, such boats' bulkheads are glassed in, making them an integral part of the boat structure. Ours aren't. I think that's a big difference. However, as they say and is usually (but not always) true, "you get what you pay for."
SF Bay
1998 C36
With all due respect, 30 knots in the Gulf Stream i think is alot differant than 30 knots in the Pacific. The waves here get awfully steep. I have been resealing my windows after every race season because of the beatings we put our boat thru. I even added 5 turnbuckles from mast to deck inside the salon and still get alot of flex. As a mater of fact I'm about ready to pull the windows and glass them over.
Carl Wehe
1985 C36TM #443
Hillsboro Inlet,FL
The turnbuckles might be making that problem worse. I was worried about my mast step and partners moving quite a bit relative to each other, so I tied the mast and deck together with turnbuckles. Now the partners are nice and stable, but the head door needs at least 1/8" planed off the top so I can open it again, same for the V-berth door, and the head window leaks. I don't think the turnbuckle is too tight, I just think the rig compression that is being transferred to the deck is changing the loads.
Or it could be that the rig in my boat was just never properly tensioned by the previous owners. But I run the rig pretty loose most of the time, except when I need to bone the backstay on in big breeze. The a fair number of cabinets won't stay shut either!
Jason V
Vancouver, BC, Canada
I have not sailed in the Gulfstream off of Florida but, I am with John. I have made several trips up and down the Northern California coast in winds in the thirties and fourties combinded with large steep seas. The integrety of my boat has always impressed me, no shifting bulkheads on my boat.
That said I will add that gentlemen do not go upwind in these conditions. This is a lousy point of sail in the best of upwind boats. Thats why the owners of big racing boats used to say the best way to go upwind is in a 747.
Coming north up the California coast you are almost always beating dead into the wind and seas. If I am doing this for any length of time I do not have the boat heeled over that far, you just do not make any progress pinching that tight into the wind. I would generally be motor sailing, easing the sheets somewhat to flatten the boat, it is easier on the boat, easier on you and you make some forward progress. I pick the tack that gives the best VMG and then ease the boat a bit, just a couple degrees can change the comfort level a great deal and lessen the load on you and the boat, the added speed cracking off a bit often makes up for the loss of pointing ability.
Again my comments are made from a chair on solid ground, only you know what the real conditons were at the time.
Cepheus dream
C36 MK I # 825
MK I Tech Editor No Mas
[QUOTE=Nimue;7572]The turnbuckles might be making that problem worse. I was worried about my mast step and partners moving quite a bit relative to each other, so I tied the mast and deck together with turnbuckles. Now the partners are nice and stable, but the head door needs at least 1/8" planed off the top so I can open it again, same for the V-berth door, and the head window leaks. I don't think the turnbuckle is too tight, I just think the rig compression that is being transferred to the deck is changing the loads.
Or it could be that the rig in my boat was just never properly tensioned by the previous owners. But I run the rig pretty loose most of the time, except when I need to bone the backstay on in big breeze. The a fair number of cabinets won't stay shut either![/QUOTE]
Before I added the turnbuckles, I had that problem with the head door, so I compleatly slacked the rig and everything went back in place, then I added the turnbuckles. This seemed to hold everything in place when the rig was re-tensioned
Carl Wehe
1985 C36TM #443
Hillsboro Inlet,FL
[QUOTE=Steve Frost;7574]I have not sailed in the Gulfstream off of Florida but, I am with John. I have made several trips up and down the Northern California coast in winds in the thirties and fourties combinded with large steep seas. The integrety of my boat has always impressed me, no shifting bulkheads on my boat.
That said I will add that gentlemen do not go upwind in these conditions. This is a lousy point of sail in the best of upwind boats. Thats why the owners of big racing boats used to say the best way to go upwind is in a 747.
Coming north up the California coast you are almost always beating dead into the wind and seas. If I am doing this for any length of time I do not have the boat heeled over that far, you just do not make any progress pinching that tight into the wind. I would generally be motor sailing, easing the sheets somewhat to flatten the boat, it is easier on the boat, easier on you and you make some forward progress. I pick the tack that gives the best VMG and then ease the boat a bit, just a couple degrees can change the comfort level a great deal and lessen the load on you and the boat, the added speed cracking off a bit often makes up for the loss of pointing ability.
Again my comments are made from a chair on solid ground, only you know what the real conditons were at the time.[/QUOTE]
Agreed, gentlemen don't go up wind, but if you need to the only way to go up wind is "hard"
Carl Wehe
1985 C36TM #443
Hillsboro Inlet,FL
I have put a bit of thought into what I would do before sailing my boat from Vancouver to Halifax, pick any route you like. I would certainly brace the rudder tube on at least two more sides, probably rebuild the mast step, and improve my bilge pump system. But beyond that I think I would be prepared to live with creaks and groans from the bulkheads. Fixing that kind of stuff would point me towards buying a boat without an interior liner first, probably an old IOR 2-tonner or similar. Nothing else I have seen in the construction gives me too much cause for concern, and certainly the flexing I have seen in some other popular production brands is worse than my boat.
Jason V
Vancouver, BC, Canada
As much as I love my Catalina, I have to agree it's not an off shore boat. I've done two Baja Ha Ha's on it (San Diego to Cabo but started from San Francisco) and multiple trips both South and North on the Coast of California.
Although I haven't been in winds up to 40kts, and hope not to, I have been in the mid 30's with seas of over 12'. Of course, in SF Bay, we do have winds between 20-30knts on many days.
The battery bank is way too small for off shore excursions of multiple days. I usually will run my engine 2x per day and the last time I also added a small solar panel for back up. Storage is great, plenty of room for food and essentials. I agree the bilge is not deep enough but did not have the trouble you did. I also check it several times per day to be sure the auto bildge is working. Although the rigging has held up well, I wouldn't trust it in extended periods of heavy seas and high winds. The first Baja I did, several of the Catalina 42's had issues and had to turn back.
Consequently, when I do decide to take off and cruise, it will have to be on a different boat.:(
Nancy
Cat's Meow #2046
San Francisco
2002 MK II
[QUOTE=GloryDaze;7571]With all due respect, 30 knots in the Gulf Stream i think is alot differant than 30 knots in the Pacific. The waves here get awfully steep. I have been resealing my windows after every race season because of the beatings we put our boat thru. I even added 5 turnbuckles from mast to deck inside the salon and still get alot of flex. As a mater of fact I'm about ready to pull the windows and glass them over.[/QUOTE]
This may be completely true, although on that particular day the wind was gusting up to 40 knots. In addition, the seas were close together and steep enough that the boat was slamming down fairly often.
Even given all of that, though, I still agree that the C36 is not a true blue water sail boat, given that the bulkheads are not glassed in. (By the way, when I removed the port bulkhead - the one just aft of the head - I found that the bottom of it was just screwed in place with wood screws, rather than through-bolted. Of course, when I installed the new bulkhead I through-bolted it. In fact, when I talked with Catalina, they just assumed it had been through bolted. Either they didn't know their own manufacturing process, or somebody was feeling rushed on that particular day, but just fixing a part that important with wood screws does not seem adequate to me.)
SF Bay
1998 C36
You bring up a great consideration with the 30 knot wind factor. I didn't really think about it as I was typing the original post, and for some reason it didn't occur to me when sailing in it to compare the seas to the Pacific; but now that I am reflecting on it, it was a different animal entirely.
I have sailed in far greater winds around the Hawaiian Islands, and besides the Panguin Banks between Oahu and Molokai, I have never experienced seas that would really qualify as "square" until that experience.
Any sea state in 30+ knots is going to be uncomfortable, but the waves really did stack up there.
As for the flexing, I have been in some uncomfortable stuff in this particular boat on the Chesapeake, and have never noticed the flexing before. It wasn't until we had sustained several hours (somewhere in the 8-9 hour mark) of rough stuff that the flexing became visible. In the seas I'm familiar with when the wind picks up, I never notice any flexing, so who knows. There isn't any permanent damage, but I do have to reseal the ports.
As for the whole gentlemen and upwind sailing thing... I COULD NOT AGREE MORE. While some may hesitate to call me a gentleman, I won't be doing any long range upwind sailing anymore!
Tobaygo
1987 Catalina 36 MKI
#660
Tampa Bay, FL
Thanks for the great account of your trip, Akorinek, wish you would have been able to make the whole trip. One other issue which has been discussed in the past is the security of our tankage in the event of a rollover. Hopefully, none of us will ever have to find out.
Mike
Deja Vu
1991 MK I # 1106
Marina del Rey, CA
A year ago i met someone on the docks in Blaine Wa,he sailed around the world with his family in a C36.....I asked him what mods where required for this?He said "unfasten the bulkheads,apply a bead of glue(sika or?)then refasten..he said Catalina recommended this...the other one i remember was an inner stay for staysail...there are more i am sure.He said he had no major problems...
"Sailing Still" 1990 C36 M25 wing
Sail Canada/Transport Canada training
Gibsons Harbour BC
www.landsendbc.ca
All current Catalina boats 30' and larger built for European delivery are certified by IMCI to be in compliance with the relevant parts of the Recreational Craft Directive 94/25/CE. The CE mark means that the craft meets or exceeds all current standards and directives of the International Organization for Standardization in effect at the time of construction. All Catalina 30' and larger comply with the CE A design category. Those built for US delivery would have to have a serial number change that is not accepted by the US Coast Guard documentation service and lack various safety placards, stove shielding, and VHF radio specs required by the IMCI. Otherwise the construction is identical. The specific language used by the IMCI is: "Category A Ocean: Craft designed for extended voyages where conditions experienced may exceed wind force 8 and include significant wave heights of 4m, for vessels that are largely self sufficient." The skill of the captain and crew, proper preparation, appropriate safety equipment are of course essential to safe sailing and are not included when the boat leaves our plant but can be added.
Tony Cullen
s/v Sceptre
1995 C-36 MkII 1449 TR/FK
San Diego, CA. (Chula Vista Marina)
Also, check out "Offshore Cruisers Hall of Fame" on the Catalina Yachts website. There are acccounts of offshore voyages of all Catalina models including the C-36.
Tony Cullen
s/v Sceptre
1995 C-36 MkII 1449 TR/FK
San Diego, CA. (Chula Vista Marina)
Click on 'Catalina 36 International Association' in the blue band, lower right corner of this page for link to our home page. Then at the bottom of the home page, page forward to the third page there to find 'Craig Mortensen and Patriot, Offshore Cruising Hall of Fame', the account of Catalina Yachts award to Craig for his circumnavigation in his C36 Mk I.
Larry Brandt
S/V High Flight #2109
Pacific Northwest, PDX-based
2002 C-36 mkII SR/FK M35B
The experience I had coming down overall was a good one, and I think it's important to restate that at no time did I feel our safety was at risk. Besides the flexing, it's performance was excellent. However, given the other considerations like the bilge, batteries, etc I think money may be better spent on something a little more stout for long-term ocean stuff.
I still plan on doing some cruising around the Caribbean which will require some amount of offshore sailing; I am just going to be a little more adamant about keeping it downwind where possible.
I have enjoyed reading several accounts of sailors taking their C36's on extended cruises, and I totally agree that with the right prep work it could be a fantastic boat for it. I just think if it was a better choice for extended cruising Catalina wouldn't need a Hall of Fame to archive stories of those who have successfully done it.
I think most of the concerns I had could be easily addressed with an investment of time and money. I guess it's up to the individual as to whether or not that investment is worthwhile.
In any case, I can't wait to get some work done and back in the water!!
Tobaygo
1987 Catalina 36 MKI
#660
Tampa Bay, FL
Phew! It's good to hear that Catalina 36's have done a fair bit of ocean sailing as my intention in the near future is to come over to purchase one, cruise awhile and sail home via the Pacific.
At the right time of year the Pacific "milk run" is very manageable and a delightful voyage.
What I do find suprising is that if Catalina agree that " removing bulkheads to insert Sika" is a good idea, why don't they do it at the production stage for just a few dollars on the purchase price?
I've fallen in love with the Catalina 36 and it seems that I'm in good company here!
Cheers,
Alan
Alan Brookes
Swanson 32
Koombana Bay
Western Australia