Hey all,
2003 Universal M35BC.
At a pretty big decisional branch point with our engine and could use some wise input. Very long message warning.
When we purchased the boat we had an engine inspection by a well-reviewed mechanic. Despite the exterior of the engine showing signs of corrosion the mechanic's inspection was "runs great- clean 'er up and she'll last forever". The oil analysis was near perfect without any evidence of abnormal amounts of metal etc. Engine runs really well and very smooth.
I've cleaned up a lot of the external corrosion and it was clear that there must have been a chronic coolant leak from a leaking cap, with corrosion evident on the manifold and wherever gravity led the leaking coolant.
I'm replaced my coolant lines yesterday and couldn't believe how corroded the exhaust manifold fitting was for the hose between the manifold and heat exchange. See pic. It has lost a chunk from the bottom and looks like it could crumble any day. I cleaned it up the best I could and was able to get a new hose on and tighten the hoseclamp as per normal. The other fittings for the other hoses looked ok. I ran the engine for a few hours and temp remained at 165F with zero leaks.
So, my first issue/question is: clearly I need a new manifold. I think this'll probably last me through the season but I can't see this lasting more than a year. Who knows, but not a risk I want to take. I did a quick search and looks like new manifold will run me around $2300.. ouch. I'd outsource that job (though if someone here has done it and it's not brutal I could do myself). but figure around $3K with labor if I hire someone.
My other question: while running it yesterday at temp, I was in the aft cabin watching for leaks. And, I noticed an almost imperceptible vapor/fog/steam/smoke (?) coming from the breather hose that comes from top of crankcase. First off, the hose is sitting right next to the air intake and I'm guessing that's not ideal as it's just recirculating whatever is coming from hose. I'd say there's a very faint exhaust smell, but no more than usual for a diesel. CO detector in that cabin hasn't alarmed, for what it's worth, though I understand there's not as much CO in diesel exhaust compared with gas.
I had changed my oil in May, and it remains dark without any frothing/evidence of water/coolant.
No low oil pressure alarms, and again engine temp is fine.
Dilemna/concerns:
1) what's the story with this steam/vapor that I'm seeing from breather? some sources online said it's normal, others say the world will end. Anyone have some knowledge on this?
2) $3K is a big chunk to put into an engine that already shows significant corrosion. Though I'd love to think that it's isolated to the manifold, this is probably a pipe dream and I worry that once the old manifold is off we'd see lots of corrosion elsewhere and then the question is whether it's worth it to even put the new manifold on.
3) looks like repowering with a Beta 30 would run me around $13K for the engine alone, plus potentially an equal amount in labor. Huge chunk.
We plan to keep and regularly use the boat over the next ten years at least. So I'm really struggling with which way to go here.
I think if the breather vapor is a sign of deeper badness, like head gasket failure etc, the decision is made. Repower. But with the engine running so smoothly I just can't imagine there's something already catastrophically wrong.
Of course, one option that I'm sure many would choose would be to just keep running the engine as is. Hose is on, not leaking, and maybe it's possible that now that the boat is owned by someone doing vigilant maintenance with coolant flushes etc the corrosion progression will be slowed. And, just run it until it dies. And then repower. The downside being that it would suck to repower in the last two years of owning the boat, which as luck would dictate, would be the case.
The other issue is the difficulty sourcing parts for this engine. Now that Bayshore in Annapolis has closed, it seems limited to a few online sources with finite stock. Not ideal.
I realize there are no "answers" here. Just looking for some input, and if anyone has repowered with the Beta I'd love to hear about the experience.
Thanks all, and sorry for the crazy-long message.
Brad
S/V Escapade
2003 C36 MK2
Hull 2148
Standard rig/wing keel
Universal 35 BC
Brad-
The level of corrosion on the manifold does look odd. I wonder if plain water was used for coolant in the past? I pulled our manifold off on our Universal M25 on our Catalina 30. I had to do it because the iron pipe exhaust elbow needed replacement and the only way to break the rust holding it was to pull the manifold and have a shop wrestle the elbow off. The manifold removal really wasn't a lot of work. Use penetrating oil on the bolts. Drain the antifreeze prior to the work. The M35BC is a similar design to the M25. You will need a new manifold gasket.
Regarding the engine condition. It is normal for a slight amount of oil vapor to be released from the crankcase. It should be a light colored vapor. The vent hose near or, in the air cleaner is common so that the vapor is sent into the combustion chambers rather than into the boat. I can't recall if our vent hose is directly attached to the air filter housing.
Engine health indicators ; black soot around the exhaust thru hull, foaming oil, rough running, power loss,(bad fuel, clogged filters, clogged injectors), running hot (clogged heat exchanger/ plugged intake line), disappearing antifreeze and white exhaust smoke in the exhaust (antifreeze/head gasket), black smoke (fouled injectors), blue smoke/excess oil consumption (worn valves/rings). Absent these things, the engine should be in pretty good shape. Diesel engines should last 7-10K hours.
Paul & Wendy Keyser
"First Light"
Rye NH
2005 C36 MKII #2257
Wing, M35B
How many hours on the engine?
Sail La Vie 1999 Catalina 36 MKII, M35B-17031, Coyote Point, San Mateo, CA
About Sail La Vie
Brad-
In your picture, it looks like there's a hose that's been cut at an angle and ends next to the air filter. It also looks like this hose originates somewhere from the front of the engine. This doesn't make sense. I wonder if something other than crankcase fumes are being vented?
The crankcase venting should originate from the valve cover. The M35BC crankcase vent hose originates from the back starboard side of the valve cover to a fitting on the air intake behind the air filter. This design prevents oil vapors from clogging the foam filter.
Paul & Wendy Keyser
"First Light"
Rye NH
2005 C36 MKII #2257
Wing, M35B
Thanks for the input
Paul- I think you're correct about water having been used at one point. It just seems like a crazy amount of corrosion and if it was circulating tap water chronically perhaps this might result. That hose does originate from the crank case- but the port side of the case itself and not from the cap.
Haro, engine hour meter said 550 when I purchased, but no way that's accurate. I bet the meter was replaced at some point. That said, I do suspect the boat sat for long stretches of time.
I'm really torn. As much as I would love to just replace the manifold, I think once I pop that thing off I'll be met with a lot of additional corroded stuff where it mates with the crankcase. I just can't imagine this is limited to the manifold. I'm leaning towards saying screw it and repowering, as insanely expensive as that is. But all ears in case anyone things it's premature to be leaning that way.
Luckily the rest of the boat is in great shape, which is why with a new engine I'm confident the boat would be great for at least another decade. Such a tough call!
S/V Escapade
2003 C36 MK2
Hull 2148
Standard rig/wing keel
Universal 35 BC
Will the transmission bolt on to the Beta? If so, you may also need to change the propshaft length. If not, then a new tranny would add to the cost. I believe the original 36's used M25 engines at the cost of some speed vs. the current M35. Maybe lower HP will open up some options, although the Beta already appears to have 30hp?
Paul & Wendy Keyser
"First Light"
Rye NH
2005 C36 MKII #2257
Wing, M35B
If my understanding is correct, the beta 30 comes with a new transmission (which was included in the quoted price of 13K to me). They also have the beta 25 which I worry could prove anemic.. I'm not sure about prop length.. though I do know that it needs to be balanced after installation. The impression I got from Beta marine is that, short of glasswork for different footprint engine mounts, it's pretty much plug and play.
S/V Escapade
2003 C36 MK2
Hull 2148
Standard rig/wing keel
Universal 35 BC
She is only 24 yeas old. I vote for a new engine. What will it cost with a broken engine in a remote site.
I check my engine before and after each sail and at anchor. I have had my 1999 C36 M36B for 17 years.
Sail La Vie 1999 Catalina 36 MKII, M35B-17031, Coyote Point, San Mateo, CA
About Sail La Vie
yeah that's the direction I'm leaning. It's a big expense for sure but when we purchased her last year, despite the mechanic saying everything ran fine, the external corrosion concerned me. Now that I see the state of corrosion internally I don't think it's worth throwing any more money into. Like you say, eventually this is gonna go and then we'll be at the mercy of whoever we can find wherever that happens. Better to do electively now and then I give it proper care from minute one.
Thanks all, the input has been very helpful.
S/V Escapade
2003 C36 MK2
Hull 2148
Standard rig/wing keel
Universal 35 BC