I have been using 6 volt Trojan 105. The first set was in the boat for over 7 years and still strong, but I changed them out because I never had batteries last that long on my previous sailboats. I put in the same brand a little over three years ago. Had an electrical problem a month ago which cooked two of the four batteries. After correcting the electrical problem I replaced all four of the batteries with Trojon 105's again. Cost $89.45 each plus tax from a local golf cart dealer. The golf cart dealer was the lowest price then anywhere else down here.

Peter,

All the 6V GC2 case sized batteries are pretty darn good. This is one of the most competitive segments in the battery industry so they all have to have comparable cycle life if they want a piece of the golf course business.. Trojan has just about priced themselves out of the market, in certain areas, with no measurable real world "longevity" differences. IMHO they are similar to Bose at this point. They build a decent product but it's mostly marketing you are paying for. Their pricing structore is also all over the map. In some areas a T105 sells for more than $200.00 and in others for under $100.00

I have seen the cheapest Johnson Controls 6V batteries go 10 years and the "best", or what people assume is the best, last 2 years. Given equal treatment I doubt you'd squeak 20-30 cycles difference between the worst 6V and the best.

One of my favorite 6V brands is US Battery. Yamaha golf cars switched from Trojan to US Battery just as many courses have done. I am lucky that I get to live vicariously through my buddy Mike who manages a golf course. They spread sheet everything including batteries. In about 2005 they switched from Trojan to US Battery. Their "box" replacement count went down slightly (replaced less US Battery boxes per year than Trojan) over the first and second year, and the "box cost" went down DRAMATICALLY (they were saving about $27.00 per battery). In about 2009 a distributor change forced them to make a move to Crown. They again noticed no real changes in "box count" but the price on the Crown for them was slightly better than US Battery so again they saved money overall. Two competitive brands that are a LOT less $$ than Trojan giving equal longevity to a golf course who measures every penny spent on spread sheets. As I mentioned it is a competitive market so all players need to be on-par..

I think today the best value, at least up this way, is the Deka/East Penn Duracell branded ECG2 sold at Sam's Club. It is a 230Ah battery for about $82.00. These are the SAME EXACT BATTERIES West Marine sells you for over double the price. The ONLY difference is the sticker.

Trying to read about battery life on the net is like going to Vegas. No one is on the same page and less than 1% of us out here on boating forums use proper (read very expensive) industry analyzers to know how these batteries actually perform, without WAG's (wild ass guesses).

The problem with any battery discussion is "what is dead?". By industry standards a battery bank that can no longer produce 80% of its "when new" CCA or MCA is considered a battery in need of replacement. That is all well and good but on a sail boat we have a massive bank with a light load so that battery bank that really should have been recycled (once past 80% there is no telling when or how the bank will fair and it gets dicey & unpredictable) can still "appear" to be doing well. It is not unusual for a weekend warrior to squeak another one or two more years from a beyond its useful life bank..

I have a customer right now who got three years out of a very, very expensive bank of 6V Lifeline batteries. I suggested to him that he keep using them until the failed.. He got another 6 months out of them before they went belly up in early November of last year. Had he been going to Bermuda I would have insisted he swap them out but he was around coastal Maine & Nova Scotia all summer so a failure was no big deal.

I have one customer who gets "6 years" out of his bank but he determines that "end of life" is when the battery will no longer power his VHF to call the launch. The battery was technically dead at year two, maybe three, but he pushes it to 6...

I have not seen any measurable cycle life differences in any of the decent 6V GC2 batteries. There are a number of makers such as Crown, Superior, Deka/East Penn (relabeled for West Marine, Sam's Club, O'Reilly Auto, NAPA and many others), Trojan, US Battery (they also do some relabeling), Exide (used to be a relabeled US Battery now Johnson Controls), Interstate (I think they use some US Battery and some Deka depending upon model)

The Deka, US Battery, Trojan, Crown & Superior batteries are all US made products. The JCI 6V are now coming out of Mexico and JCI is the largest private labeler of batteries.

When it comes to 6V batteries buy fresh and find a good price. If you are in an area where Trojan's are less than $100.00 buy them. If not buy something else. If you stick with Deka (or any private labels there of), Crown or US Battery you are getting an excellent product at a great price.

Treat your batteries well and they will return the favor.. Batteries don't die, they get murdered....

[QUOTE=caprice 1050;16043]After correcting the electrical problem I replaced all four of the batteries with Trojon 105's again. Cost $89.45 each plus tax from a local golf cart dealer. The golf cart dealer was the lowest price then anywhere else down here.[/QUOTE]

There is a dealer in Florida that has excellent Trojan pricing could be the same one I went to. At $89.45 it would be worth sending a truck down from Maine....:D

That price is about $32.00 below my dealers cost as I saw a dealer with a price similar to that when visiting my mother in law in Vero. I came back to Maine all pissed off and went to my dealer with the price quote. He got on the horn to Trojan who confirmed he could buy at that price too but it was going to be an entire truckload of T105's (no mix & match just a full truck load of T105's.)!!!! Up here a T105 runs about $155.00 to $180.00 retail, and my dealer pays about $122.00.

I can buy Crown, US Battery, Deka East Penn or Superior for $80.00 - $100.00

COSTCO Wholesale also sells GC2 batteries, not sure who makes them. Not all stores have them. Funny thing (not so funny) a couple of years ago I was buying 4 new GC2 for the house bank on my C30 and the local Costco in Marina del Rey didn't carry GC2 batts but they were listed in the battery catalog in the tire department.... HERE COMES THE NOT SO FUNNY PART... The guy puts the part number in the computer to check on availability in other stores and I noticed 2 different prices....$10 difference each... AS I recall they were around $82 each at the time.

[QUOTE=iamav56;16047] Funny thing (not so funny) a couple of years ago I was buying 4 new GC2 for the house bank on my C30 and the local Costco in Marina del Rey didn't carry GC2 batts but they were listed in the battery catalog in the tire department.... HERE COMES THE NOT SO FUNNY PART... The guy puts the part number in the computer to check on availability in other stores and I noticed 2 different prices....$10 difference each... [/QUOTE]

That is not uncommon. Many manufacturers offer GC2 batteries in varying Ah capacities. You may find the 215Ah version less costly than the 230Ah version..

With Trojan for example they offer both the T105@225Ah and the T125@240Ah.... Same case, different capacity & different price. Deka & US Battery do the same..

One thing to remember; size matters! The space in the battery box is limited and not all 6v batteries are exactly the same size. I had to modify our battery trays to lengthen them so that each could hold 2 golf cart batteries (they were designed for 4Ds), but height turned out to be as big an issue. The US Batteries with the lowest profile terminals were still 1/4 inch too high for the cover to sit flat and I didn't like the idea of someone sitting on it and pressing down on the teminals. The Deka is a perfect (but tight) fit. Measure twice at multiple locations and check specs before you buy.

Mike, I got rid of the OEM battery boxes totally and I built a single unit out of 1/4" plywood that was glassed over inside and out to make it leakproof. All 4 batteries fit in it. We have the US battery 2200's and no clearance problem at the top, in fact I think I have enough room to fit in the taller, higher amp batteries. For sure it is tight though, tight enough that there could be manufacturing differences between boats enough to cause that problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamav56
Funny thing (not so funny) a couple of years ago I was buying 4 new GC2 for the house bank on my C30 and the local Costco in Marina del Rey didn't carry GC2 batts but they were listed in the battery catalog in the tire department.... HERE COMES THE NOT SO FUNNY PART... The guy puts the part number in the computer to check on availability in other stores and I noticed 2 different prices....$10 difference each...
That is not uncommon. Many manufacturers offer GC2 batteries in varying Ah capacities. You may find the 215Ah version less costly than the 230Ah version..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail
With Trojan for example they offer both the T105@225Ah and the T125@240Ah.... Same case, different capacity & different price. Deka & US Battery do the same..
__________________
Same part number on both batteries, just 2 different prices in several locations, this was not an isolated location and the product comparison was apples to apples.

[QUOTE=iamav56;16056]
Same part number on both batteries, just 2 different prices in several locations, this was not an isolated location and the product comparison was apples to apples.[/QUOTE]

That happens, not every store in a chain has the same prices. I know that at Sam's in NH some batteries cost less than here in Maine and at my local Wal*Martin Falmouth, ME Rotella 15W/40 is less per quart than at the "Super" Wal*Mart in Scarborough...

I only referenced that because Sam's Club sells both the 215AH Deka, the GC2, and the 230Ah Deka, the EGC2..... They also sell the 6V AGM...

The 215Ah GC2 Duracell/Deka:
[IMG]http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/image/148156817.jpg[/IMG]

The 230Ah EGC2 Duracell/Deka:
[IMG]http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/image/148156815.jpg[/IMG]

Probably a silly question, but what is the primary reason for switching from the 4 Ds to the EGC2s?

[B]#1[/B] The 4D's, no matter what the glossy brochure tells you, are NOT a true deep cycle battery. Only one 4D that I know of is a true deep cycle and those batteries are VERY expensive. You also need to be very careful with the "distributor level" re-branding of these batteries as "marine". I know one 4D sold as a 205 Ah battery that is really a 135Ah battery at teh 20 hour rate!!!!! Most all 4D's, including the Exide's, are commercial truck batteries with a "marine sticker". They are at best a "dual purpose" battery but not a battery ever intended for deep cycling applications like a 6V golf car battery is. Trucks use them for the HIGH cranking amps needed to start 800+ HP engines. They are a "compromise" battery for trucks than can do both some cycling and also starting. No sailboat needs anywhere close to the CA that a 4D can provide thus we can use better batteries for our purposes than 4D's..

[B]#2[/B] The 6V batteries pack more Ah's into a smaller foot print

[B]#3[/B] The 4D's will cause back issues and keep you from sailing if you are not careful getting them on and off the boat. A visit to the hospital and the time out of commission is an added expense you need to consider.. They use a hoist at the factory to install these. Don't ruin your back.

[B]#4[/B] The 6V batteries will last longer and offer many more cycles than 4D's.

[B]#5[/B] The 6V batteries cost less than HALF the price per Ah.

2- Exide NG-4D 12V = $516.00 for 320Ah's = $1.61 per Ah
4 -Duracell EGC2 6V = $352.00 for 460Ah's = 77¢ per Ah

[B]#6[/B] Four 6V batteries give you within 20 Ah's of the capacity of THREE 4D's yet weigh 40 pounds less! Can you fit a third 4D on-board? A larger bank will last longer than a smaller bank as it will be cycled less deep.

I purchased 4 years ago, 4, Napa 6 volt batteries which were rated 215AH. Battieries still in good shape and I believe they charged me about $70 for them because I bought 4. I had purchased previous 4 battieries from West Marine at more than twice as I recall. The West battieries lasted about 5 years. These Napa battieries look like they will do same or better. I willl have to check but Napa I think said their batteries were made by Deka but I am not absolutely sure.

[QUOTE=Gary Bain;16064]I purchased 4 years ago, 4, Napa 6 volt batteries which were rated 215AH. Battieries still in good shape and I believe they charged me about $70 for them because I bought 4. I had purchased previous 4 battieries from West Marine at more than twice as I recall. The West battieries lasted about 5 years. These Napa battieries look like they will do same or better. [B]I willl have to check but Napa I think said their batteries were made by Deka but I am not absolutely sure.[/B][/QUOTE]

Yes the Napa 215 Ah battery is the same battery sold to West Marine as the Seavolt 215 and Sam's Club as the Duracell GC2..

It is a Deka / East Penn GC10 battery with a different sticker.....

[quote=Gorgonshead;16070]My old batteries are US Battery 2200s. Does anyone know of a supplier in the Maine/NH/Mass area?

PL[/quote]

If you go here:

[URL]http://www.usbattery.com/usb_usa_large.html[/URL]

There's a nice map with links to the dealers in each state.

[QUOTE=Gorgonshead;16070]My old batteries are US Battery 2200s. Does anyone know of a supplier in the Maine/NH/Mass area?

PL[/QUOTE]

A1 Battery in Quincy, MA.. I get my distributor in Maine to bring them in for me when I need them but I don't know where he gets them. I do pay a slight premium because he does not normally stock them. Still less than Trojan though more than Deka...

I just came back from purchasing 4 Trojan T-105 6V batteries (225Ah rating) for $90 each, plus tax, from a local golf cart shop. it might be the same one that Caprice used.

The Deka/East Penn/Duracell batteries at Sam's were a few bucks cheaper, but not as many Ah.

Now, I just discovered that the 4D battery boxes had holes in them, the plywood support was rotted (from acid fumes?), and the 2 inch thick lumber supporting the plywood from the curved hull below was also very spongy. None of this wood was coated, by the way.

I need to decide how i want to fabricate the structure and then make the battery boxes. This project just doubled in scope.

[QUOTE=deising;17047] This project just doubled in scope.[/QUOTE]

Ain't that always the way?!! :rolleyes:

Duane - I may have to do the same. Please post some photos after you have competed the project. I believe that the Golf cart batteries when placed end to end are about an inch longer that 4D.

Since we're all off the same production run, I'm also interested in what you see Duane.

Duane,
If you are at all handy with glass work, you should be able to use your current battery box, glass the interior to cover the holes, and/or cut it in the middle and make it an inch longer. Sort of like what they do with ships when they strecth them buy xx feet. It's soooooo much easier starting with your current box than creating a new one from scratch. Re-creating new supports shouldn't be that hard, either. You are right, though. The projected just became a lot bigger. Good Luch with it.

I have already taken photos of the project so far and will make a brief article.

I decided to replace the rotted (acid fume weakened?) wood with UHMW polyethylene that I had left over. I screwed 2 pieces together to get a 1 inch thick structure and rough cut it with a jigsaw, then used a belt sander to match the profile of the rotted wood. I had just enough 1/2 inch poly left to form the base.

I don't have too many available work hours between now and Sun night, so I will have to jury-rig one bank of batteries in place until I complete the work next weekend. We have a sunset sail planned for a good group of folks so I need to make it workable temporarily.

That's one if the advantages of using AGM batteries, they don't leak, so you can mount them upside down if you want.
But let's not get into an argument on using golf cart batteries in boats.....

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Rockman,

Aren't ALL your batteries upside down, down under:p?

[quote=deising;17060]

I decided to replace the rotted (acid fume weakened?) wood with UHMW polyethylene that I had left over. I screwed 2 pieces together to get a 1 inch thick structure and rough cut it with a jigsaw, then used a belt sander to match the profile of the rotted wood. I had just enough 1/2 inch poly left to form the base.

[/quote]

Duane, were your battery boxes the stock ones the boat came with or had they been replaced at some time? Our '95 Mk II had two fibreglass trays that the original 4Ds sat in, there was no wood at all in the battery trays, and the wood it sits on is still sound. Just curious about that.

When I switched to 6 volts I made a box out of 1/4" marine grade plywood to hold all 4 batteries and then I covered it totally inside and out with a couple of layers of well sealed glass. Hopefully that will last, it is for sure waterproof inside and out. I'm not real up on how resistant to battery acid fibreglass is though, maybe epoxy would have been better? Anyone know?

Bud,

The battery boxes were poorly-made f/g and had so many cracks and even holes that I decided not to try to salvage them. For one thing they were only about 6 inches deep and my new batteries are about 10 inches high.

The plywood sheet forming the base was either damaged from acid fumes or other rot because it was falling apart in my hand when I lifted it. It isn't like it sits in water, so it was a bit disconcerting.

Harder to deal with was the curved 2 inch thick wood formed to fit the hull and "held" in place with some very hard brown adhesive. I am guessing they slather it on the wood and press it down to self-contour to the hull. That wood was rotted for sure on the bottom and the surfaces on top were like styrofoam; meaning I could push my thump into it. Never saw that before.

If it turns out that the damage is from excessive acid fumes, then I may regret not going with a sealed battery like Gel or AGM. Of course, you should not get excessive venting unless you overfill the electrolyte or overcharge the batteries.

Interesting. Those boxes sound like ours but the ones we had actually were pretty stout, I cut them up to see if I could make them into something for the 6Vs and they were solid. I've often wondered about venting that area, we don't use much water in a year and rarely draw the batteries down below 25% so I don't know if it's necessary. Not sure how to vent it, anyone ever done that? Maybe it vents up into the open area behind the settee, I'll have to look next time I'm a the boat.

Here are some prelim photos:

Old damaged wood with polethylene replacements.

new supports in place with 3M 5200 and screws from inboard surface of settee.

Poly base on supports before securing.

Thanks Duane;
Now I know exactly what lies where under there, for future reference.

Howard

I know there has been a lot written about replacing the 4D's with Trojan T105's so to add to the last few posts here's my installation with a couple of photos for those unsure of the details.
As noted, the 2xT105s are about an inch longer than a single 4D. As has been stated, you need to cut the battery box in half and fibreglass another inch in the middle.
On my Mk11 the boxes were quite substantial and I cut them on a table saw with a tungsten blade. As shown in the picture I also trimmed the end edges of the boxes to make an easy fit in the battery compartment.
I actually joined the two halves with some thick plastic sheet and sealed it with silastic. Not very professional but quick and more than adequate. The T105s are about 1.5 inches narrower than the 4D so you can either cut the boxes a second time lenghtways to make them narrower or simply pack the batteries in the wider boxes with some trimmed down timber - which I have done - they are very secure.
I agree with Tom - using the original boxes is easy but fiddly but I think Buds approach is probably the best way to go and make new boxes from scratch.

Not shown is the tie-down arrangement. I used two lengths of half-inch reinforce steel rod sheethed in plastic tube which lays on top of the batteries and is bolted at each end to the bottom of the seat rail with 3/16 inch stainless screws. These essentially replace the two large 4x2 wood restraints.

I also added a Victron Battery Monitor so I installed two bus bars and the shunt directly under the small storage compartment above the game table seat. The second pic shows the busbars bolted to the underside of the compartment.

The last pic shows the final install with new cables. I followed to the letter the excellent advise given by Rod Collins - MaineSail regarding connections, balancing and setting up the Victron. I turned one of the batteries around to minimise cable length.

I got about 8 years out of the original Exides with very careful battery management - expect to get about the same with the Trojans. I weep when I hear the price you guys pay for batteries in the US - Downunder the T105s are $195 each!!
After all that it was a fiddly job but very satisfied with the end result.

[QUOTE=deising;17070]Here are some prelim photos:

Old damaged wood with polethylene replacements.

new supports in place with 3M 5200 and screws from inboard surface of settee.

Poly base on supports before securing.[/QUOTE]

Duane,

I saw your article on the site and it pretty much is how I handled things around 6 years ago. I did not finish trying to hold the batteries down so I looked carefully at your solution. It looks like you have aluminum pieces running very closely along side the terminals. Since aluminum is a very good conductor, that would give me the willies. Am I looking at things wrong or are you tempting a huge meltdown if the batteries shift a little?

Oh, BTW, I did not have any soft wood platform either in my 1999.

Hi, Gene. I was wondering if/when someone would mention the conductive metal. The location of the terminals makes it impossible for the aluminum to contact them. The supports are angles and the battery case is holding them rigidly in place.

The are no pos and neg terminals on the same side of the batteries, which makes it doubly safe.

I appreciate your concern.

[QUOTE=deising;17245]Hi, Gene. I was wondering if/when someone would mention the conductive metal. The location of the terminals makes it impossible for the aluminum to contact them. The supports are angles and the battery case is holding them rigidly in place.

The are no pos and neg terminals on the same side of the batteries, which makes it doubly safe.

I appreciate your concern.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the reply Duane.

I'll have to check my Interstates and see if it would be foolproof enough for this fool.

I would love to know where in IL I can find the golf cart batteries for the pricing you all are mentioning. The best I can find is $159.00 for trojan T-105. Sams Club says they are not available in IL

[QUOTE=Garycglenn;17604]I would love to know where in IL I can find the golf cart batteries for the pricing you all are mentioning. The best I can find is $159.00 for trojan T-105. Sams Club says they are not available in IL[/QUOTE]

I found Trojan to be wildly overpriced around me. Use this dealer locator for Interstate batteries -
[url]http://www.interstatebatteries.com/cs_estore/DealerLocator/[/url]

I used the "distributor" rather than "dealer" which included local tire shops which obviously just got them from the distributor.

Hi all,
I have some questions:

How difficult is it to remove the original boxes on the
MKII?

What is the best procedure?

Is height a problem under the seat with the golf cart batteries?
Thanks

Mine were "held" in with 2 screws each, but since the screw heads had corroded and the wood shelf below was rotted, they were not held in at all, really. Procedure? Take out the batteries and it will be obvious how the boxes come out.

The Trojan T-105 batteries are a lot closer to the top of the enclosure than the previous 4Ds, but there is still adequate clearance. you won't have room to mount anything above the batteries, though.

[QUOTE=deising;17996]Mine were "held" in with 2 screws each, but since the screw heads had corroded and the wood shelf below was rotted, they were not held in at all, really. Procedure? Take out the batteries and it will be obvious how the boxes come out.

The Trojan T-105 batteries are a lot closer to the top of the enclosure than the previous 4Ds, but there is still adequate clearance. you won't have room to mount anything above the batteries, though.[/QUOTE]

Not even room for the cables? I have jumpers and my new 2/0 cables for my power winches coming up and across the top of the batteries to the terminals.
I thought the boxes were installed with some kind of adhesive, (maybe 5200?), and were a real bear to get out.

Sorry, Wally, for that confusing statement.

Since the cables are generally not much higher than the terminal posts, YES, the cables will fit. You won't have a lot of room above the cables, however.

In my case, I mounted my battery monitor shunt outboard of the batteries in the only space available. With my previous 4Ds, there was room to mount the shunt above them.

Thanks Duane! My shunt is off to the outside already.
Wally

What Duane said about the boxes, 2 screws, lift them out. There are several different heights for 6V batteries, higher capacity batteries are taller and I don't believe they will clear the seat base. But due to manufacturing tolerances you should check your clearance on your boat. 6Vs in the low to mid 200 amp range should fit though.

What's a battery SHUNT?

Mike, in order to measure the current flowing in/out of the battery bank, it is common to use a precision resistor in the form of copper plates tied together in parallel and called a shunt. They are calibrated so that if the battery monitor measures a certain voltage drop across the shunt, it can display the current in amps pretty accurately. The voltage drop is miniscule and does not affect performance.

Duane, is that the same thing as a voltage meter?

Mike, a voltage meter is part of the package, but it is designed to accurately measure very small voltage drops across the shunt, like 0.001V (1 millivolt).

If you take a handheld voltmeter to your battery bank, you can measure the voltage at the battery, but you can't measure current flow unless you have a shunt.

An ammeter is basically a voltmeter calibrated to display amps. In order to do this, it requires a shunt which is a precisely calibrated resister. From OHM's Law, E=IR where E is the potential difference (voltage), I is the current and R is the resistance. By putting the shunt in series with the battery and making it the last connection to the battery (negative shunt), you can measure the voltage drop across the shunt to calculate or display current flow.

Shunts are generally rated by maximum current and voltage drop at that maximum current. For instance the most common shunt has a 500 amp, 50 millivolt (0.050 volts) rating. You can calculate the resistance of the shunt from this information. From OHM's Law E=IR you get R=E/I, 0.050/500 = 0.0001 ohms resistance for the shunt. This resistance is extremely accurate at roughly 0.01% accuracy.

So... if your electrical load draws 50 amps through the 0.0001 ohm shunt, you get a 0.005 volt or a 5 millivolt drop across the shunt. When a meter is connected across the shunt (to either side of the shunt) and that meter displays full scale deflection with 50 millivolts applied, the reading is 10% of the total. If the meter is calibrated to 500 amps at full scale deflection, the current draw displayed will be 50 amps.

Hope this helps explain the difference between a voltmeter and an ammeter and the function of a shunt.

Ammeters & Shunts 101 [url]http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6032.0.html[/url]

Hi, all.

I am about to do this procedure, i.e. cut the factory-installed battery box and fit in two (maybe four) standard lead-acid golf cart batteries, similar to what I have read in this thread.

I just want to make sure I'm ABYC compliant for safety, if reasonably possible. Is yours? If not, what would it take to make it so?