Greetings...I would like to know if anyone has experience and/or knowledge of Campbell Sailer props? Our current 2-blade prop will need replacing soon from what we saw during the purchase survey earlier this year. So of course I'm trying to evaluate some options.
From my research, I've seen it suggested to go with a 15", 10" pitch prop, however it didn't say 2-blade or 3-blade. And as things would have it, I can't find the research just now to prove this, sorry.
A West by North rep suggested a Campbell Sailer 3-blade, 14", 8", right hand rotation, 1" shaft prop. Since it's different from what I've read already, does anyone have a comment about this? I 've found discussions the above prop has less prop walk than the stock 2-blade prop. Curious to know anyone's experience.
At this time, our Universal M35B spins up very quickly, and will go past 3,000 rpm if you let it, which I don't. My understanding is 3,000 rpm is max rev. I generally run it at 2,400 rpm, or 80% power. Does this sound right as well?
Being a new owner of a C36, I haven't been able to answer these questions with the documentation I have on the boat. Any assistance would be deeply appreciated. Thanks in advance, and happy sailing...
Rob Miani
San Francisco Bay
2006 C36 Mk II
S/V Si Caro
Hull #: 2265
Rob, if you search "Campbell Sailor" on this forum you will find about 6 threads on it with pretty good discussion of pitch issues, prop walk, speed, etc.
Rob,
One of the first things you should do is to check your tach. Marine tachometers are notorious for being inaccurate, even right off the shelf. According to the owner's manual (which if you don't have, is on the Tech Notes CD), your max RPM should be 3000. If you can rev past 3000, even in neutral, then your tach is off. Get an optical tach and adjust yours so that it is accurate. The Association has one in its Tool Box, and you can borrow it as a Member, if you don't want to buy one. There's at least one article on this website that describes the process.
C36's came from the factory with either a 15x10 two blade, or a 15x9 three blade. You can't go larger than 15" diameter, but you can fiddle with the pitch. My gut tells me that 14x8 three blade is not enough prop for your 35HP engine, but I'm not 100% sure. Hope this gives you a good starting point.
Tom Sokoloski
C36/375IA Past Commodore
Noank, CT
[QUOTE=TomSoko;11050]Rob,
One of the first things you should do is to check your tach. Marine tachometers are notorious for being inaccurate, even right off the shelf. According to the owner's manual (which if you don't have, is on the Tech Notes CD), your max RPM should be 3000. If you can rev past 3000, even in neutral, then your tach is off. Get an optical tach and adjust yours so that it is accurate. The Association has one in its Tool Box, and you can borrow it as a Member, if you don't want to buy one. There's at least one article on this website that describes the process.
C36's came from the factory with either a 15x10 two blade, or a 15x9 three blade. You can't go larger than 15" diameter, but you can fiddle with the pitch. My gut tells me that 14x8 three blade is not enough prop for your 35HP engine, but I'm not 100% sure. Hope this gives you a good starting point.[/QUOTE]
The Campbell Sailor blades are deeply cambered so they produce more force than a typical prop with less wetted area and therfore less drag when sailing. They are usually smaller and have less pitch than the prop they replace.
Even so from the research I've done, it seems the dealers tend to often suggest a size that turns out to be over propped and buyers get stuck shipping the thing back for a pitch change. It would be be very informative if there are any owners out there that could share what size pitch combo's are working with the various hp engines.
Some time ago I collected data from several C36 owners on what prop they had but there was no clear winner and no one with a Sailor prop turned up.
Bill Boggs
s/v Palmetto Moon
1991 C36, Hull 1128
Herrington Harbor South
Chesapeake Bay
[url]http://www.c36ia.com/forums/showthread.php?t=970&highlight=campbell[/url]
Here is a link to one of the earlier discussions. Note Mainesail's comments. I ended up with a 3 blade I found on ebay. After 8 years with my 36 Catalina and 18 years with a 30 Catalina I have never been as pleased as to the performance I have experienced this summer. The 3 blade I purchased along with a new strut (fabricated SS) and using the largest cutless bearing for a 1" shaft, the only vibration I can feel is the motor itself almost negligble. I can reach 3000 RPM but experience a climb in temperature. I believe it comes more from backpressure than anything else. Drop to 2800 RPM and she rests at 190 degrees all day. Between GPS and KM she registers about 6.5knts at 2800 RPM. Undersail I have not experienced any significant drag, at least to worry about.
Gary Bain
S/V "Gone With The Wind"
Catalina 36', Hull #: 1056, Year: 1990, Engine: M-35
Standard Rig
Moored: Boothbay Harbor, Maine
Home: Auburn, Maine
[QUOTE=Gary Bain;11059][url]http://www.c36ia.com/forums/showthread.php?t=970&highlight=campbell[/url]
I can reach 3000 RPM but experience a climb in temperature. I believe it comes more from backpressure than anything else. Drop to 2800 RPM and she rests at 190 degrees all day. [/QUOTE]
Gary, you are aware that you can buy a 160 degree thermostat from a Kubota dealer, right?
Stu Jackson, C34IA Secretary, C34 #224, 1986, SR/FK, M25 engine, Rocna 10 (22#)
Thanks Stu,
The thermostat I have was replaced last year. It was my spare since I purchased the boat. I believe it is a 160 degree thermostat. Is there a Kubota part # you can reference? Funny, I know Kubota and Universal parts are for the most part interchangeable but never thought to get the thermostat there as well.
Gary Bain
S/V "Gone With The Wind"
Catalina 36', Hull #: 1056, Year: 1990, Engine: M-35
Standard Rig
Moored: Boothbay Harbor, Maine
Home: Auburn, Maine
Hi Bud, Tom, Stu, Bill, Gary, and I know Larry was been watching...
Sorry for taking so long to get back into the conversation. I didn't want to merely reply saying I'm taking all your suggestions and looking into them, which is what I've been doing. Since it's taken so long, I realize now I should have kept you a breast of my research. Between holiday obligations, not being able to get to the boat, reading much on the forums about propeller options, emails with Norm at West by North, and finally hearing back from Westerbeke, I have come up with the following:
- Catalina Operating Manual - No surprise:
2 Blade - 15x10
3 Blade - 15x9
- Westerbeke for an M35B - 35 hp:
3 Blade - 16x8
- Campbell Sailer - Norm's suggestion:
3 Blade - 14x8
I'm assuming the Calalina Ops Manual is a fixed Michigan Wheel or similar?
Interesting to see Westerbeke suggested a 16D for the M35B engine, isn't that diameter too big to fit?
There were many very good discussions on pitch angle as it applies to rpm and speed, which I feel has been consistent. However there still seems to be a lack of people using the CS3RH14x8x1 that Norm suggests. So with that said, I'll give it a shot. :eek: :)
There's an interesting chart on the West by North website compliments of Practical Sailor Magazine, as well as a quote:
[url]http://www.westbynorth.com/CampbellSailerTests.aspx[/url]
Practical Sailor, January 1, 1995 - M.I.T Report - "We think the tests show that the subtle design innovations of the Campbell Sailer props are of some value... we'd be inclined to give them a try."
I'm sure you've all seen this, and unless someone can tell me to not do it, I'm ready to give it a try.
There is still one question I haven't been able to answer, what's the final drive ratio? Is it 1.79:1? Most say it is, however I haven't been able to prove this with either the Catalina Ops Manual or the Universal Ops Manual. Another reason for my delay. I have found optional ratios for the Hurth transmission like 2.63:1 (HBW 150A - 3R), 2.99:1 (HBW 150V - 3R), and 2.74:1 (HBW 250 - 3R). Can someone tell me waht the (HBW 150A - 3R) refers to?
I've been flying airplanes since 1986, many different types. And I have never seen this much variance in information or lack of it, and suggestions of what to do. That's why I ask the questions I guess... :-)
Thanks again for all the help. If anyone could confirm the gear ratio of 1.79:1, I'd be appreciative. So I guess I'm off to order a new 3 blade Campbell Sailer. And it is "Sailer", not "Sailor"...Thanks again...
Rob Miani
San Francisco Bay
2006 C36 Mk II
S/V Si Caro
Hull #: 2265
To that list you can add 15 X 11 2 blade, which is what we have on our boat. Clearly stamped as such on the prop hub. It is apparently not uncommon to see these boats overpitched by an inch and ours is one of them.
Gear ratios should be on a tag on the trans, if I recall correctly ours are 1.79 and 1.86 A and B shift position respectively, meaning one of them is reverse. Yours could be different since your engine makes more HP.
[QUOTE=Gary Bain;11063]Thanks Stu,
The thermostat I have was replaced last year. It was my spare since I purchased the boat. I believe it is a 160 degree thermostat. Is there a Kubota part # you can reference? Funny, I know Kubota and Universal parts are for the most part interchangeable but never thought to get the thermostat there as well.[/QUOTE]
Gary, [url]http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3133.0.html[/url] read both pages.
and [url]http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,1067.0.html[/url]
Stu
Stu Jackson, C34IA Secretary, C34 #224, 1986, SR/FK, M25 engine, Rocna 10 (22#)
This just in from Westerbeke...
Hello Mr. Miani,
You will need to check with Catalina as to the maximum diameter propeller that can be installed on your Catalina 36 so as not to interfere with the hull.
If a 15 inch diamter is the maximum that can be installed the the 3 blade recommended would be a 15D x 10P three blade.
The HBW150A-3R This has a downward angle of 8 degrees on the transmission’s output flang. Reduction is 2.63:1 in forward and 1.95:1 in reverse.
Kind Regards,
Westerbeke Corp.
Catalina suggests a 15Dx9P. Bud has had success with it, and so have others. I am surprised by the lack of knowledge between manufacturers. Okay, maybe I shouldn't be... :)
I'm still on track to try the 14Dx8P Campbell Sailer. Thanks for all the help, it's truly appreciated...
Rob Miani
San Francisco Bay
2006 C36 Mk II
S/V Si Caro
Hull #: 2265
I've looked on line and can't seem to come up witha place to actually purchase a Campbell Sailor 3 blade prop. Any suggestions??
[quote=gerryfs;11704]I've looked on line and can't seem to come up witha place to actually purchase a Campbell Sailor 3 blade prop. Any suggestions??[/quote]
[url]http://www.westbynorth.com/[/url]