Well I got my boat so that when at dock, and even with the South Florida rain showers (and as bad as they can be) the boat is bone dry. I see no signs of water coming in.
However; while underway and sailing or just motoring the boat will take on a couple of gallons of water into the bilge. I have abandoned thru hulls in the bow, and the boat does not leak if you just run the motor at dock..
So what changes, the hull moves thru the water, the propeller shaft spins, the rudder moves back and forth, the engine is under load, the water tanks slosh around back and forth. So far just looking at possible sources I see no obvious signs of intrusion, but the water tastes salty. I did have the sea cocks open for the sinks and raw water input while underway, but the hoses are new and recently sealed. Next trip they get closed.
So I believe the the next course of action is to seal up the bilge stringer holes to identify if the water is coming from the bow or aft part of the boat. I have read that paper towels and talcum powder can aid in finding the source. I have a PSS drip less shaft seal - I hope that is not the issue as my bottom has at least another year left on it.
And on goes the project, let's see how this one evolves and what is the actual cause of water coming in, it can be anything on this good old boat.
Peder Sahlin
Pompano Beach, FL
1983 - C36 Standard Rig / Wing Keel
Hull #103
Peder - your signature does not include the year and model of your C36, so I can not tell the what is included on your boat. I have had water leaks that has taken me a year to find. One of them that was hard to find was leaking from windlass. The seals start to leak and when you get a splash you will have water in the bilge. I wonder if you have looked at that.
The other leakage is from the stuffing box of the rudder post. You may need to replace the flax. It is 3/8".
2 gallons are a lot of of water - it should be easy to find the source. I lay down Cleanex paper and hold in place with blue painter's tape.
Sail La Vie 1999 Catalina 36 MKII, M35B-17031, Coyote Point, San Mateo, CA
About Sail La Vie
I fixed the signature, still getting used to this board. The vessel is a 1983 wing keel standard rig hull #108, good old boat / new to me.
Yes it is a lot of water but I put in a redundant bilge pump system as my first project so, while concerned, I am happy that was one of my first projects.
The vessel has been changed by previous owners and has a universal 35-B motor and a PSS drip less shaft seal, I strongly suspect the later to be the issue. It does not leak while at dock at all but it is the most pronounced item that moves while underway. While I got the vessel the drain tube for the PSS was blocked off, so I ran a line up the bulkhead behind the stairs to above the waterline by about 18 inches. If that leaked I would see signs on the wood bulkhead, I do not see any signs from that.
If not I suspect the raw water outlet as the heat exchanger is tight where it fits and I am looking to re-position it to a bulk head by the amidships water tank. The engine runs consistently at a healthy temperature so if that is the case the leak is after the exchanger.
But a noted this is a good old boat with previous owners where some things were done nicely and others, I am still finding them, quite uniquely - to put it nicely.
Peder Sahlin
Pompano Beach, FL
1983 - C36 Standard Rig / Wing Keel
Hull #103
Peder
I have an 84. Check the thru hull for the exhaust. Mine was plastic. Made me nuts until I found it. Only leaked underway and a lot.
Good luck.
J.R. Seago
Seago'er
1984 MK I
Dana Point, CA
It would seem to me that the shaft seal AKA stuffing box would be the 1st to look at. While underway can you have someone at the helm while you look down below to see if the water is entering. The shaft seal face maybe out of line or worn and needs replacement.
While watching the shaft you also should be able to check the raw water intake to see if your leak is there. I would think that it would leak all the time if that were the issue, but perhaps drawing the water in could leak if it is broken or cracked.
The rudder post could also be part of the problem, but again if it leaked I would have to believe it would leak when the boat is sitting still as well. When the boat rides up and down i.e.with wake movement it hydraulically pushes water up the post.The dynamic of forward movement I would think would be minimal, but nothing surprises me anymore when it comes to a boat.
Gary Bain
S/V "Gone With The Wind"
Catalina 36', Hull #: 1056, Year: 1990, Engine: M-35
Standard Rig
Moored: Boothbay Harbor, Maine
Home: Auburn, Maine
I do not think the rudder post as there is a cavity behind it that would fill up with water first, it is dry. Unless it rains I am going to take it out this Saturday and see what comes up but the last time we were just motoring on the intra-coastal for about 3 to 4 hours and it took on water. Exhaust is a concern as is the outlet for the raw water to the exhaust as when they installed the M-35B diesel is not optimal as to how the line runs to the exhaust as it rubs against a sharp bulkhead edge. But I cut that back and the shavings are undisturbed that were left behind.. I still suspect the PSS seal as the culprit, might just be that I have been soaking everything down with WD-40 and that caused an issue. When I take the boat out I am going to make sure I have some soap with me to lubricate it with if that is the case and see if it heals itself.
I do not think the raw water intake as noted that is something that would leak underway or at dock, the boat is bone dry rain or shine at dock.
Peder Sahlin
Pompano Beach, FL
1983 - C36 Standard Rig / Wing Keel
Hull #103
Just a thought....how about the anchor locker drain line?
Wally
"Onanne"
2000 MKII, deep keel, tall rig
Lake Champlain
Took my boat out for another sea trial, the following is what I did and the results.
I have two bilge pumps on separate circuits and with separate lines to pump out. They are set in the two deepest stringers amid ship. I plugged the drain hole between the two. I only ran on the intra-coastal waterway under power so no healing. I put paper towels under all suspected and possible locations for a leak.
Results - the leak is from the bow and only underway. The PSS shaft seal, exhaust, and stuffing for rudder there are no leaks. Only the front bow of the boat had water and the paper towel buy the drain hole under the V-berth is the only towel that got wet. I can see there is a small stream of water coming down the v part of the bow, but it is not sufficient (I think) to create about a gallon and a half in 3.5 hours of running. It is not the thru hull drain for the sink in the bathroom nor the sump pump as that is blocked and dry.
It is possible to be the anchor locker, but I doubt it. I can fill that up with fresh water and see what happens. I have a abandoned thru hull for a knot log in the bow that at the next haul out is getting plugged. My wife suspect that it is coming from the bilge itself and that would be the keel bolts, but I have no seep at dock at all anywhere and do not see that the pressure exerted while underway would make that amount of change.
So at least I have confirmed that the issue is the water pressure exerted on the hull when going through the water is causing a leak somewhere. Now to contemplate my next procedure to locate the leak.
I have thought about plugging the drain hole for the bow and each of the drain holes of the stringers to isolate the leak. Another concept is to get some artist water color and paint lines in the hull and see what gets disturbed. Also as noted above dry out the bilge and flood the anchor locker. Also go under the boat and inspect the bottom, I did this a few months back and I thought everything looked fine prior to purchasing the boat. Hopefully I do not find the keel joint smiling at me when I do and I think my diver would have told me if he saw something concerning he is pretty good.
Peder Sahlin
Pompano Beach, FL
1983 - C36 Standard Rig / Wing Keel
Hull #103
I'm not the expert on mkI boats, but for mkII, I'd check the following:
Nick Caballero
Retired C36/375IA Mk II Technical Editor
Hi,
I'm assuming what you find is salt water, I had exactly the same issue some two years ago. The problem was the thru-hull draining the anchor locker. At the marina, no problem but when sailing water was coming in. Specially severe was coming in when healing starboard.
Do you have a front water tank? If yes it will be rather complex to access. We founded the plastic thru-hull was completely burned and broken into pieces. I will advice, if that is the problem, to replace it with a SS one.
Hope this helps.
Regards,
Eladio Vallina
C-36 TR EUREKA II
Hull 1122 (1991)
Home port Barcelona (Spain).
I am going to check the anchor locker by flooding it and yes it appears to be salt water. Both of my water tanks are aft, there is nothing but open space under the v-berth. I think, and I will need to double check, that how my anchor locker drains is different than depicted, from what I can tell there is a small hole that leads right out the hull on the bottom of the anchor locker. This is an early model MkI, very solid but it sounds like a number of changes were made over the years.
There are two thru hull under the V-berth, one is for a depth sounder and the other appears to be an abandoned knot / log paddle wheel that has the plug in it as the paddle wheel is sitting there and has no wires going to it. I suspect that might be an issue, but to fix it I would need to haul the boat so I want to make sure as there are not too many fix-it-yourself yards here in my area. Also the leak, if it was from that thru hull I should be able to see the leak clearly, I do not see a leak and that is an issue.
Will put some pics up this upcoming weekend prior to next sea trial as it appears my boat is built a bit different.
Peder Sahlin
Pompano Beach, FL
1983 - C36 Standard Rig / Wing Keel
Hull #103
it could just be a failed o-ring on the knot meter plug. My 36 is 9 boats older than yours and I don't recall thru-hull fitting as shown above for the anchor locker - just a drain moulded into the fiberglass, well above the water line. Also check the tightness of both sounder and log thru hull's one may have rotted backing wood
Les
Les & Trish Troyer
Mahalo
Everett, WA
1983 C-36 Hull #0094
C-36 MK 1 Technical Editor.
Commodore
Well I flooded the Anchor locker. The locker has a drain hole about 8 inches up from the waterline at the peak of the bow. There is a small trickle that emanates from the hole and I guess that is that there is a leak between the inner and out hull. But not enough to account for the water coming in.
So I took the flooring off of the front by the V berth and some previous owner had glued it in place with silicon, oh fun!. It is now in a million pieces but I had to look. It is damp inside the front Keel bolt and it is rusty, still not the major issue. What I found, and I suspect is my issue, is a crack on the port side from the mast to the front of the keel. See picture attached. I strongly suspect this is my issue. Any opinions?
Peder Sahlin
Pompano Beach, FL
1983 - C36 Standard Rig / Wing Keel
Hull #103
I'm not sure I agree with your opinion on that crack. Seems to me in both Catalinas I owned that is not an uncommon sight. If that is truly a crack to the outside I would have to believe you would see water oozing continuously while at rest.
What you did not say is did the water drain out of the anchor well? Did the water end up in your bilge?. If it stayed in the well than the drain is probably plugged and you need to flush whatever is blocking it. If the water ended up in the bilge than I would suspect the fitting, or hose to this drain, as others have pointed out. When moving through the water your boat creates a bow wave which may be forcing water into the thru hole for the exit of this drain. Just some thoughts about your problem.
Gary Bain
S/V "Gone With The Wind"
Catalina 36', Hull #: 1056, Year: 1990, Engine: M-35
Standard Rig
Moored: Boothbay Harbor, Maine
Home: Auburn, Maine
I agree with your opinion that the bow wave can force water through the anchor locker drain. My concern is that I get about 2 gallons of water in 3.5 hours and that is a lot.
I need to do another sea trial Sunday and we will see if that crack leaks. First I need to block the anchor locker drain so that I do not get an ingress. If the crack is leaking then I should be able to see it at the leading edge of the keel area as water pressure while underway may create enough pressure to bubble up the water through the keel joint.
If I had only a trickle coming in I would not be so concerned but, at least to me, a couple of gallons over a few hours is a lot.
Also I see no signs, so far, of a grounding on the rear keel bolt area.
Peder Sahlin
Pompano Beach, FL
1983 - C36 Standard Rig / Wing Keel
Hull #103
Even blocking the anchor locker drain may not be enough to stop the leak. I had to caulk mine on both the outside and inside to stop it from dribbling down into the forward bilge section... and I still have a leak from somewhere(?) into the forward bilge section. Hard to find them all. I've been posting minor leak issues for years on this forum, but I am getting better at finding/fixing them. :-)
If your keel struck bottom while on a hard tack at high speed, it might explain the crack on one side and not the other. You may want to check any water leakage from that crack on both tacks, as the crack may open wider on one or the other tack.
Ben Ethridge
Miami, FL
1984 MK1 Hull# 263
Working on getting it dry just motoring first. Have been out sailing with it but the boat is rather new to me so I am just learning the ins an outs. I do notice that the front Keel bolt sits down inside a PVC pipe and only the top of the threads shows so the actual mounting to the keel itself is much lower than the crack. Also the mast compression post has been re-glassed / repaired.
This one is driving me bonkers.
It appears there is a void between the top front of the mast and the hull where this crack is and the hull / Keel.
Peder Sahlin
Pompano Beach, FL
1983 - C36 Standard Rig / Wing Keel
Hull #103
Peder-
From reading this, I'm in the camp of anchor well drain problems. I don't know the MKI design- but if the thruhull is near the water line - I would access that space to check it. Our thruhull in the anchor well drain system had been destroyed by UV exposure. Additionally, I found the hose clamp loose on the nipple. We have a MKII that spent time in Fla. Leaking can originate through the thruhull, around it, a bad hose connection or bad hose clamp.
Good luck!
Paul & Wendy Keyser
"First Light"
Rye NH
2005 C36 MKII #2257
Wing, M35B
Paul: The MK1 design for the anchor well drain is quite different from the MK2, I think. On my todo list is to redesign mine (MK1) to be larger and more like the MK2.
Peder: I'm thinking that what you are describing did not come from the factory. At one point back a few years ago, I had a conversation with one of the designers at Catalina, who suggested that I surround my keel bolts with caulked-in PVC pipe, just to help keep them dry (since stainless steel corrodes in standing water). The previous owner may have done something similar, but I'm trying to imagine why the PVC would be lower than the rest of the hull at that point.
Also I'm trying to imagine where the "top front of the mast" would meet the keel, the former being about 60 feet up in the air. Typo?
Pictures of all this non-standard stuff would help, I think.
Ben Ethridge
Miami, FL
1984 MK1 Hull# 263
In looking at the picture of the PVC pipe surrounding the keel bolt, it's not what I expected. The keel bolts should stand maybe 4 inches above the bilge floor, but it looks like your PVC pipe just stands up an inch or so above the bilge floor. Would you say your bilge floor surrounding the keel bolt that is inside the PVC pipe has been "filled in" by glass? Is this part of the mast step repair?
Nick Caballero
Retired C36/375IA Mk II Technical Editor
I did not take it out for a sea trial this weekend. My intention is to block out the scupper holes, put PVC pipes over the front Keel bolts and duct tape the anchor locker drain shut. Just to find the source of the leak.
The keel bolts for the most part look ok, one has what appears to be a compromised washer and all keel bolts the gelcoat that should have covered them is missing. None leak while at dock at all. I am hoping that I do not get into a position to have to pull the keel.
When I purchased the vessel some months ago it had standing water in it as one of the windows leaked badly. That has since been fixed and the boat is now bone dry while at dock except for small drip from mast when it rains very badly. .
As to the mast step repair and what the front keel bolt shouldd look like I do not know. Looking at the glass work, cloth and layup, it appears factory. But is also does not look like other pictures I have seen of that area on other boats. Note that my boat is an early production Catalina so I assume design changes were made, what they were I do not know and hat is what a board like this is good for. I do not see a repair building up some 5 inches of glass and putting in a PVC pipe to access the keel bolt. If the boat had grounded that severely I should see signs on the rear keel bolt and the repair would be primarily from the outside with a layer of heavy glass on the inside.
Also the mast appears original so it does not appear that it hit a bridge which would create issues in front of the mast. The boat came with a ton of documentation and all that is noted on any surveyors report is that the mast step was repaired and they did not know how well. Rest says the boat is in very good condition for its age.
Peder Sahlin
Pompano Beach, FL
1983 - C36 Standard Rig / Wing Keel
Hull #103
Keel bolts on this vintage Catalina sit on the bilge floor, not above it.
Peder Sahlin
Pompano Beach, FL
1983 - C36 Standard Rig / Wing Keel
Hull #103
Hello from Australia! I have an identical problem with my Cat36Mk2 (2001) and it's driving me insane.
- taking salt water only while underway (sometimes 2/3 of a bucket in a few hours)
- under motor or sail power but not in still water (boat needs to be pitching and rolling)
- not the keel bolts - have inspected all while underway and no ingress of water seen
- not the anchor well (would see the trickle of water coming past the transducer & log thru-hull fittings)
- I have plugged the stringer holes and narrowed it down to coming from aft of the middle stringer
- not the stuffing gland or raw water system
- not the rudder shaft
- not any of the thru-hull fittings
- some seepage comes from an inaccessible cavity on the starboard side under the battery area whilst on a starboard tack - but not enough to explain the volume in the bilge (no thru-hull fittings on this side)
I'm at a total loss :-(
Any new ideas much appreciated.
Russell
Further: Just read this discussion on scupper drains - definitely worth checking
(https://www.catalina36.org/forum/technical-discussion/mk-ii-cockpit-scup...)
Russell
2001 Mk II 'Cafe Del Mar'
Hull 1978
Brisbane, Australia
Given the volume of water, those scupper drains are for sure something to check. Other thoughts:
Nick Caballero
Retired C36/375IA Mk II Technical Editor
Thanks Nick, yes I've eliminated all the stop cocks and thru-hull fittings. I'll check the scupper drains as soon as I get a chance but I think they're ok because I get water coming up on both sides (wet feet!) especially when in a following breeze and a decent sea. An internal leak + water in cockpit is definitely a possibility. Will advise on that.
I do get some water coming from aft of the engine room but it's fresh and identified as spillage (via the caps that don't seal!) from the centre and starboard water tanks when they are full.
Rudder bearing and surrounds are dry.
Question: if one of the scupper drain pipes is off or broken and water is getting in, is there any way it can find its way to the cavities under the engine and battery area without flowing via the visible bilge route down the centre of the vessel?
Russell
2001 Mk II 'Cafe Del Mar'
Hull 1978
Brisbane, Australia
Well, the perplexing part is that you get water ingress while motoring where sustained heeling is not happening. If you got it only when heeled over under sail I'd be suspect of the fixed portlights. The volume of water suggests something more than just seepage past failed caulking, so the portlights are a very long shot. There's just not a lot of sources of salt water that you have not already eliminated.
The scupper circuit still remains #1 suspect, especially where the hoses attach to the cockpit drains and at the transom. Conceivable that under sustained heeling that you could get the majority of water flowing around the edges of the aft stringer and into the first bilge cavity.
The fact that you get water sloshing up into the cockpit through the scuppers is strange. I've had Whimsea out in pretty rough conditions and never observed that, but never had her out in significant following seas. Anybody else with a MKII get water into the cockpit through the scuppers?
Nick Caballero
Retired C36/375IA Mk II Technical Editor
The water is coming from the bow, I suspect that a good deal is the anchor drain hole, the MK I has no line just a hole. I intend to flare a piece of brass tubing so that their is no void between the anchor locker and the hull for the water to run out. There is no water from the stern. Scupper drains I already fixed as that was a visible issue.
I intend to haul the boat this winter, too hot in Florida to do it this time of year, and check out the underbelly better than you can do diving under it. There appear from what I gather, and I intend to post some pictures, that the mast compression post was repaired. How it was done is of some concern as apparently there is some changes that were made as to the front keel bolt as it now sits within a PVC pipe.
My boat cannot be sea trialed right now as I am in the middle of painting the deck, redoing the wood, and refurbishing the deck hatches. All my stanchions and lifelines are off the boat and until I get them back on I am not taking it out. Wife is in the middle of doing the interior cushions. Like I mentioned this is a restoration but not as crazy of one as I have seen other try to do..
Peder Sahlin
Pompano Beach, FL
1983 - C36 Standard Rig / Wing Keel
Hull #103
I had a 1986 C30. I think that vintage C36 and C30 had similar structure and hull shapes. The C30, in certain conditions would take in small amounts of water through the scuppers. I also remember wet feet. The stern was relatively narrow in those years and could easily be pushed down with following sea, lots of crew in the cockpit or even high speed motoring. The anchor well drain was just a small hole in the bow a short height above the water line. I don't know how that hole (not a thru hull, but a hole) was connected to the anchor well floor. I might be dreaming this, but I think a copper or brass pipe may have been used and glassed in at the ends. Obviously copper and brass corrode in salt water.
Peder- I'm guessing that you have a deck stepped mast with an aluminum compression post that sits on the cabin sole. (Same as the old C30's). Beneath the fiberglass sole is glassed in wood that in turn, sits on glassed in plywood (the keel root). This design had two issues. The cabin core (typically plywood) beneath the mast step would compress and the wooden compression block on top of the keel was also subject to compression. Water migration through the mast step screws was common on old boats and accelerated cabin roof compression. The wooden keel step had a rubber hose glassed in that drained water from the mast compression post into the bilge. Of course the rubber hose separated from the fiberglass and allowed bilge water to to seep into the wooden mast step and accelerate compression and rot.
The solution- remove the mast step casting, drill holes in the cabin roof and fill with low viscosity epoxy (after allowing the wood to dry). Refasten the mast step casting and apply ample polysulfide caulking to prevent re-occurance. Dig out the rotted keel step and replace with new rot resistant hard wood. Use a PVC drain with caulking or 3M 4200 rather than a rubber hose and glass everything back in place.
Paul & Wendy Keyser
"First Light"
Rye NH
2005 C36 MKII #2257
Wing, M35B
To test if water intrusion is from Anchor drain, while at dock use a water hose, hold near this hole for about 10 minutes then check for water inside.
Sail La Vie 1999 Catalina 36 MKII, M35B-17031, Coyote Point, San Mateo, CA
About Sail La Vie
Re Comment #25 (31st August 2016)
I found that the scupper drainage piping had broken away on the inside of the transom. The break appeared to have started as a small crack and gradually became bigger and eventually separated from the transom completely. The transom fitting had also come a bit loose such that water could enter around the fitting.
This explained quite a bit - water ingress in a fast following sea with some roll (a common sailing configuration for me) such that it found its way around the bilge cavities and thus into the bilge proper when heeled over as well as occasional water coming up through the scupper drains into the cockpit (wet feet).
All fixed now (that fitting is a bit hard to get at from the inside!) and no more water in the bilge. Hooray!
Russell
2001 Mk II 'Cafe Del Mar'
Hull 1978
Brisbane, Australia
Good news Russell on your stern leak. Now just waiting on the report from Peder Sahlin on his bow leak....
Nick Caballero
Retired C36/375IA Mk II Technical Editor
Here is an update as tight now there are a lot of projects ongoing. The leak is strange and intermittent, the worst kind. I put in a new brass tube from the anchor locker to the bow, that was part of the issue. The existing tube was rotted and leaked between the outer hull and the anchor locker..
The other thing I found is that the mast siphon tube was clogged and I think underway it let fluid come out as the water moved around, that was a couple of gallons when I unclogged it. I need to check it again.
I also think water is settling somewhere and while underway it moves along, not sure but I have gone through this boat from one end to the other. Like I said intermittent and not anything to be too concerned about but very annoying.
My other projects are Oberdorfer pump conversion, I moved the Heat Exchanger from behind the motor (M35B) to the port water tank bulkhead, battery charger, Xantrex battery monitor, most of the interior is new, working on replacing the sole with a Lonseal floor, I painted most of the top of the boat, refinished and replaced some of the wood trim, pulled refinished, rebuilt, and resealed, the hatches, replaced all of the lifelines, put in a composting toilet with stanchion vent tube. and a few other things.
Peder Sahlin
Pompano Beach, FL
1983 - C36 Standard Rig / Wing Keel
Hull #103