For those following the blog of our recent month-long cruise, you know that either the hose detached or the fitting broke at the drain on the starboard side of the transom. When heeled to starboard, we had a 1 inch diameter holes taking on lots of water.
I have not been back in the aft cabin to look through the access port since the quick discovery of the problem yesterday, but I was looking at the problem from the cockpit side as I motored home today.
It appears there is very little volume of water that could accumulate in the cockpit of the boat that would not drain much better out the open transom, than via the scupper.
Since the scupper drain at the transom is extremely difficult to access on the MK II, and fearing a possible repeat of this near disaster, I ask this:
What would be the problem with closing off the two drain fittings on the transom as well as the two scuppers in the cockpit sole?
Duane Ising - Past Commodore (2011-2012)
s/v Diva Di
1999 Catalina 36 Hull #1777
Std rig; wing keel, M35B, Delta (45#)
Punta Gorda, FL
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/diva-di/
Duane - if you are flat, you're right. What if you are heeled over sufficiently, would the water still drain out the back of the helm? I can't imagine having that much water in the cockpit for that to be a problem. Why were they designed for those locations anyway? We looked at ours this morning and they are certainly difficult to get to. Really glad it all worked out.
David S. Power
Two If By Sea #1687
Burnt Store Marina
Punta Gorda, FL
Duane,
I've been reading your blog since the beginning (and I am SO jealous!). In my not-so-professional opinion, I'd suggest replacing both thru-hulls with barbed Marelon thru-hulls, replace the hoses if needed, and keep the scuppers intact. A couple of years ago, in Juniper, I went out in weather I shouldn't have gone out in. We took a huge wave into the cockpit. At 30-40 degrees of heel, the water did not flow out the open transom. It took 5-10 minutes for the water to SLOWLY drain out. The scuppers are there for a reason. But that's just me.... :-)
Tom Sokoloski
C36/375IA Past Commodore
Noank, CT
As new a 36 owner, I've questioned the cockpit scupper drain usefulness too- the amount of water volume that they would contribute to removing seems minimal compared to what the open stern could do. However, if you were ever to find yourself in very rough conditions, even a small amount of additional removal might make a difference.
We have to pass through the mouth of the Merrimack River to exit/enter our home port- Newburyport MA. The river mouth is notoriously dangerous with standing waves that rapidly increase in height when meeting ocean swell or wakes from whale watch boats/large vessel traffic. Even with 20 years of experience we've found ourselves occasionally in situations of taking water into the cockpit (over the transom of our C30, and through the open transom on the 36). Although never planned for, when you find yourself in conditions like that, you want every available means to drain the cockpit. I guess that's a way of saying I would fix scupper if it were my boat.
Paul & Wendy Keyser
"First Light"
Rye NH
2005 C36 MKII #2257
Wing, M35B
Thanks much for the good opinions and reasoning so far. My only reason for considering not fixing them, but sealing them, is that if this happened once, it can happen again.
I agree that replacing both fittings and hoses, new hose clamps, etc., reduces the risk of another failure, so I will see what it will take to make that happen and consider further.
Duane Ising - Past Commodore (2011-2012)
s/v Diva Di
1999 Catalina 36 Hull #1777
Std rig; wing keel, M35B, Delta (45#)
Punta Gorda, FL
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/diva-di/
I am working through multiple issues right now, but a cursory inspection of the geometry involved reveals to me that the cockpit scupper is only about 12 inches higher than the transom drain to which it is connected on the opposite side of the boat. When you do the trig, that means at angles of heel close to 15 degrees, the scupper and drain are at the same level, so no draining will occur.
I do need to make more careful measurements when I can, but now I am back to thinking they serve no real purpose.
Duane Ising - Past Commodore (2011-2012)
s/v Diva Di
1999 Catalina 36 Hull #1777
Std rig; wing keel, M35B, Delta (45#)
Punta Gorda, FL
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/diva-di/
Thanks for sharing your experience with us - glad it turned out well. Good info on the expandable vs wood plugs. I have both on board, thinking I should get a couple more expandable ones.
I'm not aware of scupper drains on my '95 Mk II, maybe they were added later in the production cycle? If you have any pictures you could post I'd certainly appreciate it.
Fair winds,
Ken Akers
1995 C-36 MkII #1378 SR/FK M35A
San Francisco Bay
Right. Our '95 also does not have any scuppers, the only thing on the upright part of the transom is the propane locker vent, and that is well up the port side. Must have been added when they changed the transom style to incorporate the two transom platform/seat things?
Two things:
1. Here are 2 pics showing the external location of the scupper drains on the transom, and the internal pic showing the broken drain fitting.
2. I made more careful measurements today of the height of the scupper in the cockpit relative to the transom drain, and the horizontal distance between them (port scupper connects to starboard drain and vice versa). After doing the trig, I conclude that the scupper won't drain after approximately 12 degrees of heel.
I would love for a skipper with scuppers like mine to review it independently and render an opinion. Thanks!
Duane Ising - Past Commodore (2011-2012)
s/v Diva Di
1999 Catalina 36 Hull #1777
Std rig; wing keel, M35B, Delta (45#)
Punta Gorda, FL
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/diva-di/
More updates:
1. The port transom drain is connected solely to the propane locker.
2. The starboard transom drain (the one that broke) is teed to both cockpit scuppers.
I am going to email Gerry Douglas and hope for a reply.
Duane Ising - Past Commodore (2011-2012)
s/v Diva Di
1999 Catalina 36 Hull #1777
Std rig; wing keel, M35B, Delta (45#)
Punta Gorda, FL
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/diva-di/
Seems that if you ran the drain from each scupper to it's own transom outlet, and tee'd the propane locker drain into the port outlet, you would effectively double the amount of water that could drain. The propane locker is way above the cockpit scupper, so water could not back up into it.
Make sense?
Joe & Patti Worth
"Tehani"
1999 C36 MKII #1810
Atlantic Highlands, NJ
Thanks for your input, Joe. Actually, the bottom of the propane locker is below the cockpit scupper, considering that the cockpit sole slopes up at that point.
The only time the scuppers are useful is when the boat is heeled and there is a small amount of water that cannot easily drain out the open transom. The boat is only heeled to one side at a time, so I am not sure how you double the amount drained through the scuppers.
Duane Ising - Past Commodore (2011-2012)
s/v Diva Di
1999 Catalina 36 Hull #1777
Std rig; wing keel, M35B, Delta (45#)
Punta Gorda, FL
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/diva-di/
Points well taken! I was thinking of a "wave breaks over the stern and fills the cockpit" scenario.
Joe & Patti Worth
"Tehani"
1999 C36 MKII #1810
Atlantic Highlands, NJ
[QUOTE=deising;20070]
I made more careful measurements today of the height of the scupper in the cockpit relative to the transom drain, and the horizontal distance between them (port scupper connects to starboard drain and vice versa). After doing the trig, I conclude that the scupper won't drain after approximately 12 degrees of heel.
I would love for a skipper with scuppers like mine to review it independently and render an opinion. Thanks![/QUOTE]
I'm a "skipper with scuppers," Duane (love the way that sounds...), but on our MkI the through hulls are a good deal lower, on the underside of the transom area. I would guess that as a result they would drain better on deep heels, but on the other hand, if we ever had a breakage on the thru-hull as you did, we'd no doubt take on more water!
You've given me one more thing to inspect regularly...
Matthew Chachère
s/v ¡Que Chévere!
(Formerly 1985 C36 MKI #466 tall rig fin keel M25)
2006 Catalina Morgan 440 #30.
Homeported in eastern Long Island, NY
I was very pleased and grateful to get a reply today from Gerry Douglas (C36 designer and principle at Catalina Yachts).
He said that the scuppers are there solely to drain the small amount of water that might accumulate while you are heeled. If you can live with that small amount, no negatives to removing the scupper drains altogether.
I realize the failure of the transom drain fitting might be a low probability event, and would likely not occur again after replacement, but if I can simply plug the hole to make the chance of failure almost zero, I may choose to do that. Obviously, I would have to plug the two cockpit scupper holes, too.
My wife is a bit distraught over this. Maybe if she makes the decision it will give her some ownership in the outcome and restore some confidence.
Duane Ising - Past Commodore (2011-2012)
s/v Diva Di
1999 Catalina 36 Hull #1777
Std rig; wing keel, M35B, Delta (45#)
Punta Gorda, FL
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/diva-di/
Status report:
I obtained a marelon thru-hull fitting from Forespar, and put the system back as it was designed.
Details:
I cleaned out the cracked pieces of the old fitting, only to discover that the nut on the inner surface was not coming off (probably 5200 adhesive). I managed to screw the new fitting into the old nut and sealed it well on the bore and the large mushroom head with adhesive. I know how critical this fitting can be, but i am supremely confident that the adhesive alone will do the job should that old nut pose a problem.
The ridiculous part was the hose. My 102 pound wife crawled into the aft compartment, and with me working from the top, we together removed hose clamps and shifted the hose upward enough for me to handle the T-fitting at the starboard lazarette. I was able to get the old short section of hose off with the broken thru-hull barb, fit a new piece of short hose, and replace all the hose clamps.
All Diane had to do at that point was put the short hose onto the new thru-hull fitting barb and tighten the hose clamps, which she was able to do.
After we were done, however, she said I need to plug it from the outside anyway so if the hose or fitting barb should fail, we will still not take on water. That means plugging the 2 cockpit drains, or else I will have the extra weight of water sitting in the hoses forever and putting extra strain on the fitting.
I guess that won't be too hard to do.
Duane Ising - Past Commodore (2011-2012)
s/v Diva Di
1999 Catalina 36 Hull #1777
Std rig; wing keel, M35B, Delta (45#)
Punta Gorda, FL
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/diva-di/
In retrospect though, and since you are plugging them anyway, would it not have been easier to just pull out the thru hulls, hoses, etc. and glass over all the holes?
[QUOTE=bstreet;20587]In retrospect though, and since you are plugging them anyway, would it not have been easier to just pull out the thru hulls, hoses, etc. and glass over all the holes?[/QUOTE]
Well, Bud, your logic is sound. I surely would not have gone to all the trouble we did if I had known that the admiral was going to insist on having them plugged anyway. I am tolerating this recent and hopefully temporary extremism on her part only because this recent flooding event really had her scared.
We're going back to the outer Bahamas next spring and for some reason, deep water crossings with a boat that almost sank has her worried. If I can put both a belt and suspenders on this particular issue, then I will do it and hope time eases her worries.
Duane Ising - Past Commodore (2011-2012)
s/v Diva Di
1999 Catalina 36 Hull #1777
Std rig; wing keel, M35B, Delta (45#)
Punta Gorda, FL
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/diva-di/
About 10 years ago, my slip neighbors traded their 31' Hunter for a 38 footer; I think it was a C&C, but not sure. He was showing me around the boat, which was quite nice. He opened the engine hatch below the companionway ladder. There were two big thru hulls attached to large hoses. I asked him what they were; they were the cockpit scuppers, led way below the water line. I remember thinking at the time that there was no way I would find that acceptable. I close all through hulls on my boat every time I leave it for any length of time, and having to leave those two big ones open to allow the cockpit to drain would drive me crazy. He was leaving the boat in the water for the winter, and I figured there would be a pretty good chance of it being on the bottom by spring, if the water in those hoses froze and cracked those bronze through hulls.
My vintage Mk II has no scuppers or thru hulls for them, but at least it sounds like they're above the water line most of the time on the C36's that have them. So not as bad as it could be.;)
Gary and Cathy Price
1997 C36 Mk II Tall Rig/Wing Keel Imagine...
Hull # 1617
Worton Creek, Md.
Northern Chesapeake Bay
True, these drains exit the transom close to 12 inches above the unloaded waterline. Add the dinghy on davits, cruising gear and provisions, and start moving at speed through the water (so that the stern wave rises under the counter of the hull), and those holes are close to the waterline.
Now, heel to starboard and the drain thru-hull is several inches below the water level.
So, at least she won't sink at the dock for that reason.
Duane Ising - Past Commodore (2011-2012)
s/v Diva Di
1999 Catalina 36 Hull #1777
Std rig; wing keel, M35B, Delta (45#)
Punta Gorda, FL
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/diva-di/
While installing my below decks autopilot we decided to check these out. It was noticed that my starboard through hull was already cracked off and just hanging there. That explains why I have water in some of the small recesses in the lazaretto. :)
Great heads up Duane. This is a really difficult spot to get to and one would not normally look there.
2000 C36 MKII 1825
Glad my post helped someone else. It is really a difficult area to see, let alone work in.
Duane Ising - Past Commodore (2011-2012)
s/v Diva Di
1999 Catalina 36 Hull #1777
Std rig; wing keel, M35B, Delta (45#)
Punta Gorda, FL
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/diva-di/