Started to get Kailua ready for Spring today. Changed the v-belt, impeller and the oil. All was going really well, until I managed to create an ARC with the dipstick as I was checking the oil level....
When I removed the dipstick, I must have created a circut somewhere. The ground fuse from the starter was blown. It was a 25Amp fuse. I replaced it and reattached it to the engine block. The positive starter fuse was fine (not blown). However, the starter still doesn't respond. I checked the connections (seem fine). Is it possible that I fried the starter? Or Alternator?
The engine started immediately earlier in the day (warmed the engine to prepare to drain the oil). Am I looking at a new starter (or alternator)? How can I tell if one is 'bad'?
I saw in another thread that tapping the starter with a hammer may cause the 'bendix' to unstick. I'll try that as well - but in the event it doesn't work - any suggestions are appreciated.
tim
Tim Farrell
S.V. Kailua
C36 - 1986
Hull# CTY0678A886
One other thing - if it is the starter, is this a proper replacement https://www.amazon.com/UNIVERSAL-19215-63011-19212-63010-19212-63011-028000-6140/dp/B008Y3NVC4
?
or this http://www.fleetalternatorstarter.com/starter_50428.aspx
The factory one is $1000 - this is $87. Doesn't seem possible?
Thanks in advance....
Tim Farrell
S.V. Kailua
C36 - 1986
Hull# CTY0678A886
I don't know what engine you have but tractor starter are much cheaper than boat starter - even if they are 100% identical. I'd buy a tractor starter any day of the week....
Les
Les & Trish Troyer
Mahalo
Everett, WA
1983 C-36 Hull #0094
C-36 MK 1 Technical Editor.
Commodore
I would try jumping 12V directly to the starter selonoid before I went out and bought a starter. That will check all the wiring up and back to the engine panel
Les
Les & Trish Troyer
Mahalo
Everett, WA
1983 C-36 Hull #0094
C-36 MK 1 Technical Editor.
Commodore
Tim
I find it hard to believe that you damaged the starter. I agree jump the starter directly.
After you get it running you can see if you damaged the Alt.
Do you have a "red" button CB on the starboard side on the engine? It may have tripped.
Do you have power to your gages and warning horns?
Chuck Lennox
97 MKii Ventura Ca
Island Girl Hull #1611
Thanks Chuck and Les - I will try jumping directly to the solenoid. Just so I am clear what you mean. I should take two wires (pos and neg). Temporarily attach to the battery. Run them to the positive input on the starter and the negative input on the starter and see if there is any movement?
By doing it this way, I will be bypassing the starting switch, correct? So it should spin immediately?
Tim Farrell
S.V. Kailua
C36 - 1986
Hull# CTY0678A886
[quote=tim_farrell]Thanks Chuck and Les - I will try jumping directly to the solenoid. Just so I am clear what you mean. I should take two wires (pos and neg). Temporarily attach to the battery. Run them to the positive input on the starter and the negative input on the starter and see if there is any movement?
By doing it this way, I will be bypassing the starting switch, correct? So it should spin immediately? [/quote]
you only need the hot one the ground should take care of itself. And only jump to the small wire going to the selonoid. You risk arc burns, fire and death ( ok exaggerating but not by much) if you jump to the heavy gauge wire on the starter
there won't be a ground wire on the starter.
If if you have any doubts use car jumper cables and heavy leather gloves and eye protection.
Les & Trish Troyer
Mahalo
Everett, WA
1983 C-36 Hull #0094
C-36 MK 1 Technical Editor.
Commodore
Thank you. I got the starter to turn by jumping the small wire on the solenoid. It turn as long as I kept it hot. Wasn't able to get the engine to turn over - but at least I know it isn't the starter unit itself.
So I think that puts me at following the wiring and seeing if there are any additional fuses or loose connections. It must be a fuse - because before I created the ARC - the engine started fine. There are only two things that changed 1)I created an ARC and 2) some oil spilled in that area. I suppose it is possible that the oil drip onto a connection and therefore it isn't a 'good' connection anymore.
I'll look for fuses and trace tomorrow - other suggestions are appreciated.
Tim
Tim Farrell
S.V. Kailua
C36 - 1986
Hull# CTY0678A886
Tim
When you supplied 12volts to the small "start" terminal did the starter crank over the engine?
If so starter in fine. Move on to trouble shoot why you are not getting power to that terminal.
Do you have power to your gages?
Have you looked for a CB mounted on the engine? On my Catalina there in a Red button that in for a CB that controls the gages and starter control circuit. SB on starboard side near fuel pump.
Chuck Lennox
97 MKii Ventura Ca
Island Girl Hull #1611
Hi Chuck - yes, by jumping to the small terminal on the starter, I was able to crank the engine (didn't start - but it turned, indicating the starter is functional).
I do NOT have power to the gauges, so I am troubleshooting that now.
I have a MK1 which doesn't have the red CB on the starboard side of the engine. Wish it did!
Tim Farrell
S.V. Kailua
C36 - 1986
Hull# CTY0678A886
It may just be the solenoid. To test turn on the ignition switch and increase the accelerator position then place a screwdriver across the solenoid contacts. That should turn the engine. If it does not start - you know the solenoid is bad. They are replaceable.
Sail La Vie 1999 Catalina 36 MKII, M35B-17031, Coyote Point, San Mateo, CA
About Sail La Vie
To be crystal clear it is the two big lugs you jumper across - not the little one - you'll burn up the ignition wire if you tried to power the starter by jumping it...
Les
Les & Trish Troyer
Mahalo
Everett, WA
1983 C-36 Hull #0094
C-36 MK 1 Technical Editor.
Commodore
duplicate
Chuck Lennox
97 MKii Ventura Ca
Island Girl Hull #1611
Les
I would respectively disagree on jumping the two big lugs. Yes that will turn the starter, but will make some big sparks. Supplying 12 volts to the starter start terminal is the best way to test the starter and solenoid.
Chuck
Chuck Lennox
97 MKii Ventura Ca
Island Girl Hull #1611
Update - As mentioned above, I did get the engine to turn by jumping at the starter. I do think I may have harmed the ignition wire as I no longer have power to the instruments and I blew the inline fuse.
I have now replaced the fuse (25a) and still don't have power at the panel. Is it possible I fried the ignition when I jumped the starter?
I'm learning a lot about the system - but I feel like I'm inflicting my own pain now - ugh
Tim Farrell
S.V. Kailua
C36 - 1986
Hull# CTY0678A886
You'll need to get a friend, voltmeter and the wiring diagram from the technical section and check all the wires between the engine and instrument panel out. Make sure your fuse size matches the diagram - Lots of conflicting diagrams out there - If your running a glow plug relay I would think you could reduce down to 10A plenty at the panel (mostly blower, lift pump and starter solenoid and a couple lights). There are two places for fuses that may leave your panel dead - at the panel and at the engine
Can you describe how you got the starter to "spin" earlier, where was the power source to the jumper, wire size, what did you touch.. pictures would be good.
If you jumpered the ignition wire to the starter motor - you overloaded it and could have damaged it (talking >200A here thus my warning repeated below) -- my docs show that as a 20A (not 25A) fuse. Be sure and check the fuse/circuit breaker at the panel also as that would have popped if you connected the ignition wire to the starter motor.
[Quote] And only jump to the small wire going to the selonoid. You risk arc burns, fire and death ( ok exaggerating but not by much) if you jump to the heavy gauge wire on the starter [/Quote]
Les & Trish Troyer
Mahalo
Everett, WA
1983 C-36 Hull #0094
C-36 MK 1 Technical Editor.
Commodore
thanks Les,
I got the starter to spin my taking power from the large post on the starter (the one that connects directly to the battery) and jumping it to the smaller post on the starter (the one with the spade connector). This caused the starter to engage.
I did blow the fuse in the engine compartment. I cannot find a fuse near the panel - which all the wiring diagram suggest there should be one - but I can't see it anywhere.
I have a multimeter and will try to get there today. I need to find out if the power wire that leads to the ignition is hot or not. I suspect it isn't. If so, I need to trace where the fault is.
Will report back
Tim Farrell
S.V. Kailua
C36 - 1986
Hull# CTY0678A886
That is the right way to jump the solenoid - and should not cause a fuse to blow. On my engine panel it is a 10A push to reset Circuit Breaker. Hopefully you don't have trailer plugs any more - using the terminal strips is much easier to gain access to the conductors.
While in there sleuthing - add the glow plug relay and trailer plug removal to the to do list if not already done. Both can be done easily in about 4 hours.
Les
Les & Trish Troyer
Mahalo
Everett, WA
1983 C-36 Hull #0094
C-36 MK 1 Technical Editor.
Commodore
Thanks - The trailer plug is long gone - I have terminal strips and the alternator is connected directly to the starter, eliminating the long run.
I don't know about the glow plug relay. I'll have to research that.
I just have to figure out where I'm losing power. Hopefully I'll find it tonight or tomorrow.
Thanks - Tim
Tim Farrell
S.V. Kailua
C36 - 1986
Hull# CTY0678A886
I have my alternator running back to the house batteries - I typically (100%) start from a dedicated starter battery, and charge to the house batteries. While charging a pair of automated charging relays kick in and connect the starting and windlass batteries to the house so they get topped off, the charge relay drops out when the batteries are not being charged (either by alternator or shore power battery charger).
Les & Trish Troyer
Mahalo
Everett, WA
1983 C-36 Hull #0094
C-36 MK 1 Technical Editor.
Commodore
Problem solved. Thanks all for the guidance over the past couple days. There were a couple of problems.
The contacts in the inline fuse were corroded and I was seeing significant voltage drop between the fuse and the terminal strip in the engine compartment. I was able to clean them with a wire brush.
Second, the contacts at the terminal strip were not tight and I was losing voltage there as well. Cleaned and tighten these up.
Old wire connector to the alternator broke in my hand as I inspected it. This didn't cause a problem in the starting - but probably impacted charging.
Corroded connector at the ignition. Cleaned and reset.
This was a great learning experience for me. I traced every wire and know where they go. I learned a lot about how the boat works. Glad it happened (in hindsight). Doing this work added several items to my ToDo list (as always) but I will do it more confidently after this exercise.
Thanks Les, Chuck and all for the assist.
tim
Tim Farrell
S.V. Kailua
C36 - 1986
Hull# CTY0678A886
Glad it is working for you!! - Changing out the terminal strips and re-wiring the panel is on my to do next winter - I think i will replace the strips with weatherpak connectors. The relay mod is described here on Stu Jacksons great C34 site http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Faster,_More_Efficient_Glow_Plug_Heating_with_a_Solenoid lots of overlap with the equipment on our 36's . It only takes 15-20 seconds to get those plugs cooking, in contrast to 60 seconds without the relay and only hot (the rest of the heat goes into the wires).
Les
Les & Trish Troyer
Mahalo
Everett, WA
1983 C-36 Hull #0094
C-36 MK 1 Technical Editor.
Commodore