Starter not powering up

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deising's picture
deising
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Starter not powering up

Perhaps someone has some helpful info for me. Over the weekend I tried to start my M35B engine and there was no reaction by the solenoid/starter (at least as far as I could tell).

The battery switch was on and when I turned the ignition switch I got lights and gauge movement, but when I pressed the start switch there was nothing. No clicking, nothing. Out came the voltmeter and off came the instrument panel and engine covers. I verified battery voltage (13.8 since the solar panels were charging) all the way past the starter switch once it was depressed (closed circuit). I next checked the heavy cable at the positive side of the solenoid to the engine ground point (same place the alternator ground connects) and got battery voltage.

If there were a poor connection, I suspect I would get clicking at the solenoid, but there is zero sound. The coolant hoses make accessing much of the solenoid/starter next to impossible.

What could I be missing? Is there anything that disables the starter from powering up? Thanks in advance.

Duane Ising - Past Commodore (2011-2012)
s/v Diva Di
1999 Catalina 36 Hull #1777
Std rig; wing keel, M35B, Delta (45#)
Punta Gorda, FL
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/diva-di/

BudStreet
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Posts: 1127

I would undo and check all the battery cables to the starter, engine ground and to and from the solenoid and make sure they're clean and no corrosion. A bad connection could cut power totally under heavy load. But it sounds to me like a bad solenoid if you're getting power everywhere you should be getting it. Is your voltage dropping when you hit the starter button?

rhardison
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look for an in line 20 amp fuse in the wiring harness near the starter!

Richie Hardison
Sydney Lane
1984 C36 #332
New Bern, N.C.

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deising
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Thanks, Bud and R Hardison.

I do not measure any voltage drop when the starter button is depressed. My experience is that even with a low voltage under load, the solenoid should react somewhat.

I have not found an inline fuse in the wiring harness, but I suppose I will have to check further. It does act like a totally open circuit condition and a blown fuse would do that.

More thoughts welcome.

Duane Ising - Past Commodore (2011-2012)
s/v Diva Di
1999 Catalina 36 Hull #1777
Std rig; wing keel, M35B, Delta (45#)
Punta Gorda, FL
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/diva-di/

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GaryB
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It has been a while since I have had starter issues. Funny thing this weekend I had a very similar reaction from my engine the starter did not turn no clicking etc. I thought first it might be low batteries or a loose cable. Tried it again and she whirled over. Maybe moisture on the push button not really sure as it was momemtary. Seems to me though you will find a fuse going into the starter. I had a lot of issues with this on my old Cat 30. Fuse being either blown or the contacts within the holder not making contact. I finally broke down and replaced the fuse holder and that was the end of the problem.

Gary Bain
S/V "Gone With The Wind"
Catalina 36', Hull #: 1056, Year: 1990, Engine: M-35
Standard Rig
Moored: Boothbay Harbor, Maine
Home: Auburn, Maine

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GloryDaze
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Make sure you have a good ground, without it all the voltage in the world wont help

Carl Wehe
1985 C36TM #443
Hillsboro Inlet,FL

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LCBrandt
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Posts: 1282

Might consider jump starting it: jumper cables from the starter pos terminal back to a 12 VDC lug somewhere suitable. "Suitable" being the operative word here.

Larry Brandt
S/V High Flight #2109
Pacific Northwest, PDX-based
2002 C-36 mkII SR/FK M35B
 

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baysailor2000
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Take a look at this photo. On the top right corner is a red button that is labeled 20 AMPS. It is to the right of the lift fuel pump. Try and reset it - I wonder if it will help solve the problem. I have the very same engine M35B. Let me know.

Haro Bayandorian, 1999 C36 MKII, Sail La Vie #1787, M35B,
Coyote Point, San Mateo, CA.

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mutualfun
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Duane here is something to ponder. On the boat we have I knew the previous owner before we bought it and I did the harness upgrade for him. Well he wanted the wires spliced in instead of going directly to each spot. Last year I had the coolant recovery tank leak and it got into the splicing and created the same issuse that you have right now. As I found I had hgh resistance in one of the wires comming fron the start button to the seloniod. It would not bring it in to make the contact to complete the start circut. After it for ne twice I fixed the issue. So if you have done the harness up grade and did the eurro connection take a look at the wire from the start button to your seloniod.

Randy Sherwood
Mutualfun 1990 # 1057
T/R W/K M35a
Home. Charlotte, Mi.
Boat. St Augustine,Fl.

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deising
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Thanks, all!

Those are good things to consider. I knew the next step was to go through the pain of physically tracing the wire. I did not know about that reset button that Haro mentioned. That was a great photo.

I will not be able to tackle this again until Sat, so I will let you all know what I find.

Duane Ising - Past Commodore (2011-2012)
s/v Diva Di
1999 Catalina 36 Hull #1777
Std rig; wing keel, M35B, Delta (45#)
Punta Gorda, FL
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/diva-di/

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deising
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Status - good so far

I revisted the the lack of power to the starter as follows:

1. found the reset button on the 20A circuit breaker and pushed it - no change
2. used a jumper from the positive lead on the starter (direct from the battery switch) to the wire on the solenoid that comes from the starter button in the cockpit. That got an immediate reaction from the starter, but I broke the circuit before the engine started.
3. Tried the started button again (without the jumper - just as normal) and it started fine.
4. I was doing several other things today, so I stopped and restarted 3 times over several hours and all was fine.

Could it have been just a stuck solenoid?

Duane Ising - Past Commodore (2011-2012)
s/v Diva Di
1999 Catalina 36 Hull #1777
Std rig; wing keel, M35B, Delta (45#)
Punta Gorda, FL
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/diva-di/

caprice 1050
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Duane
Every once in a while my starter would not turn over on my M35. No click or nothing. All I did was tap the starter with a wrench or hamer then it would start as normal. This is because the Bendix was sticking. I remebered this trick from when I was a kid and had a '48 Ford V-8, with the same problem.

Ater going through this a half dozen times over the last year or so a few weeks ago I finaly put in a new starter and it works every time.

I got a price on a new starter from Universal at over $1,400 dollars, however I bought one from API Marine Company through Torresen Marine for $390.

__/)__/)__/)__Capt Mike__/)__/)__/)__
Punta Gorda Florida
1990 Std WK M35 Hull #1050

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mutualfun
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2 things Duane. It could be like Caprice says or the wire from the start switch has high resistance in it to where the position that the starter was in it would not bring in the coil to make the complete circuit. If you can take and do a ohm reading on the switch wire vers one you used to test it with. It is just a quick check with a ohm meter.

Randy Sherwood
Mutualfun 1990 # 1057
T/R W/K M35a
Home. Charlotte, Mi.
Boat. St Augustine,Fl.

deising's picture
deising
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Thanks, Mike and Randy.

That's a pricey repair, but well worth it if that cures the problem "forever."

I agree, Randy, that a high resistance in the wire energizing the solenoid coil could be an issue, but since I found nothing loose, why is it now working again? The resistance doesn't just change randomly unless there is something loose in a connection. Perhaps it is as you suggested that the solenoid/bendix was stuck in a bad position.

I plan to test the starter several more times over the next week or so and will report.

Duane Ising - Past Commodore (2011-2012)
s/v Diva Di
1999 Catalina 36 Hull #1777
Std rig; wing keel, M35B, Delta (45#)
Punta Gorda, FL
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/diva-di/

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John Reimann
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maybe it's totally different, but I know that usually in a car the solenoid rarely goes out all at once. First when you turn the key it might click once or twice and when you turn the key off and then back on it will start. This gets gradually worse over time. From my experience, it's pretty rare for the solenoid in a car to suddenly fail altogether with no warning. As I say, this might be completely different in a boat engine, but it's something to think about.

SF Bay
1998 C36

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deising
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Thanks, John. It has been a long time since I had a car starting solenoid fail, but you could be right. In this case, I have never had anything but flawless operation of the starter with the boat until that one time.

By the way, I have started it several times over several days since the 'fix' on the weekend and it seems fine.

Duane Ising - Past Commodore (2011-2012)
s/v Diva Di
1999 Catalina 36 Hull #1777
Std rig; wing keel, M35B, Delta (45#)
Punta Gorda, FL
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/diva-di/

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Ken Juul
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A new starter at tractormart is in the $300 range also. That just seems like highway robbery. I'm sure the starter/selenoid can be rebuilt for much less than that.

Ken and Vicki Juul
SV Luna Loca
C34 #1090
Chesapeake Bay

BudStreet
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I got rebuilt one from a rebuilder on eBay for $79.

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baysailor2000
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If it does not respond next time - it would be time to pull out your volt meter. Place the volt meter across the starter relay contacts that provides power to the starter. You should see 12 VDC. Then have someone press the starter button. While depressed you should have 0 VDC. This means that the contacts of the relay are making - so then you can rule out the starter relay contacts. It appears that you have corroded contacts on the relay terminals. I had a car like that that would not start randomly. I finally found blackened contact on the starter itself. Sandpaper cleaned permanently and no more trouble. If you find it to be this case - then apply some petroleum jelly so that it remains clean.

Haro Bayandorian, 1999 C36 MKII, Sail La Vie #1787, M35B,
Coyote Point, San Mateo, CA.

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deising
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Thanks, Haro.

Perhaps I am letting the fact that I am not very flexible and that the starter/solenoid is surrounded by coolant hoses prevent me from getting the full picture. What I see is a heavy cable coming from the battery switch 12V positive to the bottom of the starter. I see no negative lead at all and am assuming the starter gets its ground from the engine block.

If that assumption is correct, then the solenoid functions to close the positive side of the circuit somewhere inside the casing, out of sight. I suppose removing the starter/solenoid would be best, but it will mean removing those coolant hoses and the resulting mess.

I appreciate all the suggestions!

Duane Ising - Past Commodore (2011-2012)
s/v Diva Di
1999 Catalina 36 Hull #1777
Std rig; wing keel, M35B, Delta (45#)
Punta Gorda, FL
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/diva-di/

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GaryB
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When I first got my C36 I had starter problems. I had it rebuilt for under a hundred dollars. Worked fine. A year later I had an issue and found a loose wire within the starter and resoldered the connection. That was 8 years ago and never had a problem. Last year I did go onto ebay after I confirmed some universal numbers and Kubota numbers and bought a brand new starter for under a hundred bucks. I compared it to the one I have and it was an exact match. The company that had them for sale is in the Mid Atlantic states somewhere and if I can find the invoice I will advise. I have not had to use the new starter yet but keep it on the boat wrapped and contained in a water tight container for future use. $100 I can aford the spare the $700 plus Torrenson wanted forget it!

Gary Bain
S/V "Gone With The Wind"
Catalina 36', Hull #: 1056, Year: 1990, Engine: M-35
Standard Rig
Moored: Boothbay Harbor, Maine
Home: Auburn, Maine

Maine Sail
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Posts: 324

[QUOTE=Ken Juul;10547]A new starter at tractormart is in the $300 range also. That just seems like highway robbery. I'm sure the starter/selenoid can be rebuilt for much less than that.[/QUOTE]

Just re-built a starter for a 5416 and it is very similar if not exactly the same one as the M-25. My local alt repair shop sold me a new solenoid for $49.00 and they take about two minutes to install. Often times the ground pigtails fails and this goes into the starter motor so be sure that is good if only replacing the solenoid.. Check a local auto electric shop and they can set you up..

-Maine Sail
https://www.marinehowto.com/

 

cherman
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Posts: 3

Last summer we had a problem with the 20A breaker located on the back of the engine tripping when the key was turned to activate the glo plugs. After a lot of searching we discovered a hole in the insulation on one of the wires leading to the engine. This was where the wire harness came from the back around to the port side of the engine. It had been run tight against the back corner of the engine, between the block and under one of the heat exchanger hoses. We cut out the bad spot, added a butt splice and split tubing over the harness to prevent this in the future.

Chuck Herman

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deising
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My continued thanks for all the information posted in this thread.

I have started the engine at least a dozen times since 'fixing' the problem after the one-time failure. My confidence is climbing back up.

Duane Ising - Past Commodore (2011-2012)
s/v Diva Di
1999 Catalina 36 Hull #1777
Std rig; wing keel, M35B, Delta (45#)
Punta Gorda, FL
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/diva-di/

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GaryB
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[url]http://stores.ebay.com/Discount-Starter-and-Alternator/Inboard-Starters-...

This is the link to the store that I purchased the starter last year on ebay

[url]http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-STARTER-UNIVERSAL-MARINE-INBOARD-M-35-M4-30-...

This link is one listed today

Gary Bain
S/V "Gone With The Wind"
Catalina 36', Hull #: 1056, Year: 1990, Engine: M-35
Standard Rig
Moored: Boothbay Harbor, Maine
Home: Auburn, Maine

deising's picture
deising
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Thanks, Gary. That is quite a good price. Sometimes cheap prices mean cheap goods; but in the marine market it might just mean someone forgot the 500% markup.

Duane Ising - Past Commodore (2011-2012)
s/v Diva Di
1999 Catalina 36 Hull #1777
Std rig; wing keel, M35B, Delta (45#)
Punta Gorda, FL
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/diva-di/

billta
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Joined: 6/13/08
Posts: 32

Duane,

Thanks for having this problem and thanks to the problem solvers. I just had to hit the reset button, and voila, power back to the start button, and instrument panel. I was was very forlorn discovering I had no power to the instrument cluster. Big $$ costs floating around in my head. But then I calmed myself and went immediately to the Cat 36 forum page and searched for my problem. I figured it was a fuse problem, but never knew about the reset button. I guess it takes having a problem to learn. I hope everyone takes advantage of this association and all the great problem solvers on it. It helps tremendously,and saves mucho $$. Worth every penny of the cost of membership.

Bill T

Bill Taylor
Heel'n Good #1612
Washington, NC

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tim_farrell
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Posts: 117

Does anyone know if there is a similar reset button on the M25? 

Tim Farrell
S.V. Kailua
C36 - 1986
Hull# CTY0678A886

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