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borregomark
Last seen: 5 years 8 months ago
Joined: 9/11/10
Posts: 33
Standing Rigging Options

I had one of those sparkling Southern Cal weekends. Flying the 150 genoa and the asym spinnaker for the first time went really well thanks to the excellent (C36IA) lead for the genny and instructions for setting up the asym. When the boat speed went to 7.8 I noticed the massive load on the rig. A squeak here, a little flex there and a whole bunch of tension in the sheet. If the rigging is not original it is well over 10 years looking at the deterioration of the fittings. I would like to start replacing one stay at a time $$$. Are do it yourself stays reliable? Before investing in the crimping tool I would like to know if there are any opinions on the mechanical fittings that are assembled with wrenches and are reusable? Is this project best left to the pros?

Thanks!

Mark Andrews
S/V Grace
86 C36 #995730
San Diego

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Mark Andrews
S/V Grace
86 C36 #995730
San Diego
gmackey
Last seen: 1 year 10 months ago
Joined: 5/14/10
Posts: 46

Don Casey heavily prefers the compression style (Sta-Lock, Norseman) terminals over swaging.

Nigel Calder points out that swaging has big QA issues. Unless 100% expertly swaged, the work cannot really be trusted. Additionally, he points out that swaging is much more vulnerable in salt water.

My Brion Toss book has temporarily slipped into another dimension so I can't source from him.

I have Norseman on my boat but I can't take total credit for that decision as it was the PPO who who re-rigged with these terminals. I regard it as a big plus.

Don Casey gives good instructions for DIY standing rigging in This Old Boat.

Cheers,
Graham

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Graham Mackey
SV Nostromo
1989 C36 908
Tall Rig/Wing Keel
Toronto, Canada
Nimue's picture
Nimue
Last seen: 5 years 5 months ago
Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 429

To do all-new rigging, it is probably actually cheaper to go swaged than to buy Norsemans.

If you already have Norsemans and you trust them, then it is cheap and relatively simple to get new cones and wire and DIY.

As to which is better, this is a Ginger or Mary-Anne sort of question. I prefer swages, but I have a couple friends who own a rigging company and I trust their work implicitly. Also the heavy rain in the PNW tends to keep the salt from attacking our rigging they way it seems to do in say, Florida.

There is a strong argument in favour of the Norseman fittings if you are going offshore into areas where you must be self-sustaining. Norseman fittings and a length of wire long enough to replace a broken forestay (by far the most likely stay failure if you use furling) should see you through any rigging failure that you can catch while the rig is still standing.

EDIT: I see the first poster was talking about buying a 'crimping tool'. These might work for lifleines (still questionable) but are not for stays. For this you need a roll-swager, which means you need a pro rigging company, as a roll swager will set you back about the same $ as a cheap Catalina 36. One at a time doesnt' save you money when you are paying hourly labour. If you want to go slowly on the replacement, do Fore/backstays together and first, then cap shrouds, then worry about the lowers. If you are really trying to be cheep, you can probably skip replacing the aft lowers as they don't take nearly the loads that the other shrouds do under normal conditions.

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Jason V
Vancouver, BC, Canada
greigwill
Last seen: 3 years 11 months ago
Joined: 3/28/10
Posts: 174

Geez Jason,..Ginger or Maryann...that took me a minute.yes the pro swages are cheaper and reliable,norseman/stalock are great,more money and reusable.Are you racing in the Van isle 360?your c36?

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"Sailing Still" 1990 C36 M25 wing
 Sail Canada/Transport Canada training
Gibsons Harbour BC
www.landsendbc.ca

borregomark
Last seen: 5 years 8 months ago
Joined: 9/11/10
Posts: 33

Thanks all for the feedback. Lots to chew on. I forgot about the swaging machine needed to roll those fittings tight. I am glad to hear the positive review for the Norseman products. I haven't seen these around here yet. My crush was for Mary Anne.

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Mark Andrews
S/V Grace
86 C36 #995730
San Diego
Maine Sail
Last seen: 2 months 1 day ago
Joined: 2/26/10
Posts: 315

[QUOTE=borregomark;7854]Before investing in the crimping tool I would like to know if there are any opinions on the mechanical fittings that are assembled with wrenches and are reusable? Is this project best left to the pros?

Thanks![/QUOTE]

If you have the 8k to 10k to invest in a swaging machine I doubt the cost of new rigging is a big issue..:D

Here in the NE most professional riggers will suggest swages up top and mechanical fittings down low. It cost more but lasts a little longer and the mechanical fittings can be re-used. With the freeze thaw we get the lower swages fail fairly fast.

This is a typical freeze thaw failure..
[IMG]http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/image/110556656.jpg[/IMG]

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-Maine Sail

https://www.marinehowto.com/

 
Thomas Francis
Last seen: 11 months 19 hours ago
Joined: 10/29/08
Posts: 6

I think you should move away from wire rigging. I just replaced my rigging, Cat-36, 1986, with synthetic rigging, (dyneema), from Colligo Marine. You can see the results on their website, Colligomarine.com. Much stronger, alot lighter, and it looks fantastic. I sail out of Sausalito, Ca., (SF bay), and need very strong and reliable standing and running rigging----30 knots all the time. I blewout forward-port inner shroud in 41 knots. I had not planned on this amount of wind; one of those unannounced blows. You cannot change rigging one stay at a time....they are most likely all bad.Thanks to me, they have all the measurements, and because the rigging is so light, it is very easy to install, and cost-effective. Taking all that weight off aloft makes an incredible difference in your performance......tom francis

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ludo
Last seen: 4 hours 25 min ago
Joined: 3/14/16
Posts: 82

Thomas, still happy 7 years later with your Colligo Marine rigging? Would you do it again?

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Ludovic François
​Hotel Catalina - Catalina 36 Hull #883
Marina Del Rey, CA
CyndiVH
Last seen: 23 hours 39 min ago
Joined: 6/15/17
Posts: 4

Hi Tom,

I am curious too about how your dyneema standing rigging has held up! I watched a couple of great videos on the replacement of standing rigging with dyneema today and to seems to be gaining traction. 

For those who may be interested...here is one that was pretty good. This particular vlogger has three different videos out on his dyneema rigging.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfS9xxEPZ8E

Any other C36'ers making a switch to dyneema? Any other feedback? I believe new standing rigging is on the horizon for us...

Any advice would be GREAT.
Cyndi
_______
1995 C36 Mark II
Hull 1443
'Slip Away'
Deltaville, Virginia

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Cyndi Van Herpe
s/v Slip Away
1995 Catalina 36 Mk II
Hull 1443
Deltaville, Virginia
bcam's picture
bcam
Last seen: 2 years 6 months ago
Joined: 6/29/07
Posts: 77

[QUOTE=thomas francis;7876]I think you should move away from wire rigging. I just replaced my rigging, Cat-36, 1986, with synthetic rigging, (dyneema), from Colligo Marine. You can see the results on their website, Colligomarine.com. Much stronger, alot lighter, and it looks fantastic. I sail out of Sausalito, Ca., (SF bay), and need very strong and reliable standing and running rigging----30 knots all the time. I blewout forward-port inner shroud in 41 knots. I had not planned on this amount of wind; one of those unannounced blows. You cannot change rigging one stay at a time....they are most likely all bad.Thanks to me, they have all the measurements, and because the rigging is so light, it is very easy to install, and cost-effective. Taking all that weight off aloft makes an incredible difference in your performance......tom francis[/QUOTE]

So Tom, are you going to give us a ballpark figure for the pieces?

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Bruce Campbell
Evergreen Dreams #1409

borregomark
Last seen: 5 years 8 months ago
Joined: 9/11/10
Posts: 33

The Dyneema specs are impressive! If the UV resistance is as good as stated this would be a good alternative. How long has your rig been fitted with this? How did the shroud fail? At a bend, chafe etc?

Thanks!

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Mark Andrews
S/V Grace
86 C36 #995730
San Diego
Thomas Francis
Last seen: 11 months 19 hours ago
Joined: 10/29/08
Posts: 6

[QUOTE=bcam;7877]So Tom, are you going to give us a ballpark figure for the pieces?[/QUOTE]

Around three thousand; everything except the forstay, (replaced 4 yrs. ago). That included titanium tangs and the fittings joing the rigging to the chain plates. I also changed out my life lines with the same synthetic rope. I had professional riggers install both the lifelines and the standing rigging, but would now do alot of the work myself; it is very straight forward. Oh, the pictures are on Colligo Marine's facebook site. The performance is really noticable......plus it looks very cool.....tom b. Call John at Colligo Marine; he is very helpful, and yes you could change over in phases to spread costs. Catalina 36 drawings for rigging are very accurate, allowing Colligo the ability to do all the splicings and etc., before shipping. Shipping costs are low! No weight! Better yet, when installed, all that weight missing aloft! tom b.

Thomas Francis
Last seen: 11 months 19 hours ago
Joined: 10/29/08
Posts: 6

[QUOTE=borregomark;7880]The Dyneema specs are impressive! If the UV resistance is as good as stated this would be a good alternative. How long has your rig been fitted with this? How did the shroud fail? At a bend, chafe etc?

Thanks![/QUOTE]

twice failed at the swage on the lower turnbuckles; first time we thought it was due to an accidental jibe, second time---straight on failure. Why? the stainless needs oxygen to stave off rust. Lack of oxygen and moisture in the fitting. January, 2011 completed.......Tom Wylie, Wylie boats has used the material for a long time........

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ROAM
Last seen: 1 month 1 week ago
Joined: 5/24/17
Posts: 29

12/18: Anything new related to Dux or this thread ? It's hard to tell when the last comment(s) were posted. Looking at rigiing options. Tuning is one of my questions related to Dux. After getting in collum .. the look of rig, hand feel tension and performance under sail I suppose is the way

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Greg 
ROAM 
C36 MkII 2001
SF Bay
LeslieTroyer's picture
LeslieTroyer
Last seen: 1 day 3 hours ago
Joined: 3/13/16
Posts: 456
I fully changed out all standing rigging and lifelines for about $6,500C. Which at the time this spring was right at $5000usd. Very happy with the work. Blackline Sidney BC. I don’t think I could DIY it for that. Les
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Les & Trish Troyer
Mahalo 
Everett, WA
1983 C-36 Hull #0094
C-36 MK 1 Technical Editor. 
CyndiVH
Last seen: 23 hours 39 min ago
Joined: 6/15/17
Posts: 4

Leslie,
Did you use standard SS rigging?

My curiosity is around the use of synthetic rigging, (e.g. dyneema).

There are some very compelling reason to choose dyneema but it's still very young in this spectrum of use, imho so lots to overcome.

Wondering what feedback there is many years later from using dyneema.

Cyndi

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Cyndi Van Herpe
s/v Slip Away
1995 Catalina 36 Mk II
Hull 1443
Deltaville, Virginia
LeslieTroyer's picture
LeslieTroyer
Last seen: 1 day 3 hours ago
Joined: 3/13/16
Posts: 456
All stainless except for the lifeline gates.
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Les & Trish Troyer
Mahalo 
Everett, WA
1983 C-36 Hull #0094
C-36 MK 1 Technical Editor. 
TadTV
Last seen: 3 weeks 4 days ago
Joined: 9/17/16
Posts: 25

I'm in the middle of replacing all my standing rigging wires. I've done all the lowers and the port upper so far. I'm doing it just by myself while in the slip and it is easy IF you are comfortable in a bosun's chair(I use a bosun's chair with side pockets on a Harken rachet 2 block system and 150' line PLUS a climbing harness and a rescue figure 8 on a second halyard). You have to go up and down 1 or 2 times per shroud to measure, order, remove/install. The hardest part is loosening the old turnbuckles. I had to buy huge 18" wrenches at Harbor Frieght to get enough leverage to loosen the turnbuckles. For measuring use a steel 100' tape measure (Amazon $10).
Don't use the factory figures as they are not exact. My two lower aft shrouds were dead on to the factory, but the forward lowers were off by 2 or 3 inches. I ordered one of the upper shrouds since I couldn't figure out how to measure over the spreader boot and it was windy and the tape measure was vibrating over the 43 feet. When I installed the one upper shroud I had ordered, I used that as a precise measurement for the other side. I ended up adding a 1/2" to the Starboard one but was very happy I hadn't screwed it up. My thinking was that if I ordered both and both were messed up, that's an expensive mistake. But, if I ordered just one and it was off, I could then try to use that one for the backstay-which is split and then order the new ones with the new correct measurement knowledge.  
Each lower shroud is only costing about $100 and the uppers are $215 I think. The most expenisve is my backstay which is split and uses 4 $39 forks plus the rest of the eyes, etc. That one alone with the turnbuckle is $504. I'm keeping some of my turnbuckles, bought a few other bodies only while on sale $40 each and keeping the chainplates and lower turnbuckle portions- however, I have pulled every chain plate and cleaned and inspected them all.

The whole wire rigging is costing around $1650 with shipping. I used Riggingandhardware.com. They have a good website where you can add all the items and see their costs. Each 1/2" eye (top) is about $7 and turnbuckle stud bolt (bottom)about $6.50. 1/4 SS1x19 was about $1.79 per foot I think. And swaging charges are $7.50 per end for 1/4" wire. The Uppers use 5/16" wire so everything is a bit more. I have not gotten to the backstay and forestay yet. They are so high up on the masthead, even at the top of the halyard I can just barely touch them while seated in the chair. That's way too hard to pull the large 3/8" pins and wrestle the cables.
My plan is to install 3 folding maststeps so I can get out of the chair and stand on the mast steps and have the masthead at my waist. I'll use a short 18" chunk of line to tie off my climbing harness to the spinaker block mount. That way I can only fall 2 feet. Then when I'm done, unscrew the 2 screws per step and insert white nylon screws into the mast holes until the next time I need to remount the mast steps to service the masthead-which If figure is only once every other year. Why keep the mast steps up there to corrode and add weight. Hope the rest of my measurements were accurate as I have already recieved all the other shrouds.

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Tad
Simpler Times
1989 C-36 MK I #1004
Redondo Beach, Calif.
 
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