Question about 12v system overloading

28 posts / 0 new
Last post
Channel Islander's picture
Channel Islander
Offline
Joined: 10/8/11
Posts: 378
Question about 12v system overloading

Hi friends,

I am barely getting to know my new C36 and am trying to hold off on all the questions until I see whether the answers reveal themselves. but one thing has me stumped already.

The 12-volt DC system seems weak. As soon as I turn on a second lamp the first one dims; this continues until the overall level of lighting would be best be described as a murky gloom when all lamps are lit. Additional symptoms include the lights dimming or flickering each time the water pump boosts pressure.

I have three batteries aboard; two in the original housing under the aft starboard settee seat and one under the forward seat. The two aft are the house batteries and the one forward for cranking, as far as I can tell. The two house batteries are Kirkland Deep Cycle, which makes me wonder whether the amperage or capacity of the batteries is way too low.

I should point out that the same symptoms exist whether or not I am connected to shore power.

Thanks for any info/suggestions,

Nick

Nick Tonkin
*Former* Website Administrator, C36/375IA
*Former* owner, C36 tr/fk #255, Santa Barbara, CA

stu jackson c34's picture
stu jackson c34
Offline
Joined: 12/3/08
Posts: 1270

It's the wiring. Follow the wiring diagram in your manual (or the one online) and you'll see what are relatively small #14 ga. wires to the interior lights. They essentially run all the way around the boat. Many of us have either upgraded the wiring gauge or branched off to avoid having them all on one loop. Small wires tend to exacerbate voltage drop issues, like when your pump runs.

Stu Jackson, C34IA Secretary, C34 #224, 1986, SR/FK, M25 engine, Rocna 10 (22#)

Channel Islander's picture
Channel Islander
Offline
Joined: 10/8/11
Posts: 378

Thanks Stu. Good to know that it's not a more serious issue.

The lighting needs upgrading anyway, not just the wiring. Those lamps just aren't bright enough for these eyes. The PO left a powerful wide-beam 12v flashlight aboard, now I know why!

Thanks again for the reply.

Nick Tonkin
*Former* Website Administrator, C36/375IA
*Former* owner, C36 tr/fk #255, Santa Barbara, CA

LCBrandt's picture
LCBrandt
Offline
Joined: 6/26/07
Posts: 1282

One possible way to alleviate your problem is by reducing the demand for current over those smaller wires: swap out the present bulbs for LEDs, which draw way less amperage than what's in there now. There are lots of benefits from this, such as being able to hang on the hook for a longer period.

Larry Brandt
S/V High Flight #2109
Pacific Northwest, PDX-based
2002 C-36 mkII SR/FK M35B
 

Channel Islander's picture
Channel Islander
Offline
Joined: 10/8/11
Posts: 378

Larry,

Just to clarify, you are saying that there are LEDs that will fit the existing 1984 Catalina lamps? Would you happen to know a source for them?

Thanks,

Nick

Nick Tonkin
*Former* Website Administrator, C36/375IA
*Former* owner, C36 tr/fk #255, Santa Barbara, CA

plaineolde's picture
plaineolde
Offline
Joined: 11/4/08
Posts: 753

I've read really good things about the sensibulbs. They also sell the adapters that will fit the bayonet style lamps used on the C36 (at least the Mk II).

[url]http://www.sailorssolutions.com/[/url](link is external)

They're on my list for next year's upgrades.

Gary and Cathy Price
1997 C36 Mk II Tall Rig/Wing Keel Imagine...
Hull # 1617
Worton Creek, Md.
Northern Chesapeake Bay

LCBrandt's picture
LCBrandt
Offline
Joined: 6/26/07
Posts: 1282

I don't know what type light fixtures are on your boat. It's probable that Catalina light fixtures evolved over the years as the available fixtures at any given time evolved. That said, almost any marine light fixture today can be upgraded to LED, and usually by simple plug-ins. I wrote an article on Repairing Reading Lights (C36 Mk II) and upgrading with LED lamps. Look in the Technical - Maintenance library, accessable by paid C36IA Members (capital M).

A lot of benefits for your boat, potentially including not needing to change out wiring.

Larry Brandt
S/V High Flight #2109
Pacific Northwest, PDX-based
2002 C-36 mkII SR/FK M35B
 

TomSoko's picture
TomSoko
Offline
Joined: 2/15/07
Posts: 978

Nick,
As a follow-up to Stu's post, your electrical panel probably needs some work. I believe that your boat, and all other early Catalina panels, had a "daisy chain" setup with fuses and toggle switches. More modern panels use buss bars and breakers. With a daisy chain (small jumper wires going from one fuse to the next, to the next, etc.), there is a much greater chance for corrosion within all those contacts, and your overall voltage is reduced. As a start, I'd suggest going thru your boat, and cleaning every contact you can find, including ground connections. Maybe even a simple disconnect and connect again a few times for the spade terminal connections. Any place you see a wire connected to something, take it apart and put it back on. If you see corrosion, clean off the corrosion before assembling again. Buy a can of CorrosionBlock or similar. Put a drop of it on every connection. Also check for loose crimps. Give a good tug on the crimps. If they pull out, you know they weren't tight enough to begin with. Buy a multi-meter and check the voltage at different spots. The OEM wiring would probably be good enough in many situations if you had clean connections. Also, how old are the house batteries? How clean are their connections? Most importantly, does your boat have the wiring harness upgrade?? If not, DO IT!

Tom Sokoloski
C36/375IA Past Commodore
Noank, CT

Channel Islander's picture
Channel Islander
Offline
Joined: 10/8/11
Posts: 378

Thanks, Tom. I believe you are right about the electrical panel and I would be surprised if the wiring harness has been upgraded (how would I tell?). So far I have been simply cleaning the interior of the boat from years of accumulated dust and grime (the cleaning wench is about to start Day Three just on the interior, and I did the bilges and the cushions - good thing she _really_ wants to go sailing!) so I can stand to be aboard . . . I can see I will be going through things and upgrading/fixing for the foreseeable future.

As a side note, you seem to have replaced/repaired/upgraded just about every system large and small on your boat; how long has that taken and what shape was she in when you bought her?

Thanks,

Nick

Nick Tonkin
*Former* Website Administrator, C36/375IA
*Former* owner, C36 tr/fk #255, Santa Barbara, CA

LCBrandt's picture
LCBrandt
Offline
Joined: 6/26/07
Posts: 1282

Nick, go to the C36IA home page (via the 'Catalina 36 International Association' link, lower right corner of this page), click on the Technical tab, then on Upgrades, and you'll land on a seven page list of Upgrade articles, one after the other, including 'Tom Soko's Upgrades to Julandra'. From the Technical tab you can also click on Maintenance, which takes you to a many page list of Maintenance articles. Grab a favorite beverage, sit in that comfortable chair by the fire, and you'll have several days of happy reading over the winter.

Larry Brandt
S/V High Flight #2109
Pacific Northwest, PDX-based
2002 C-36 mkII SR/FK M35B
 

stu jackson c34's picture
stu jackson c34
Offline
Joined: 12/3/08
Posts: 1270

[QUOTE=Channel Islander;10723]Thanks, Tom. I believe you are right about the electrical panel and I would be surprised if the wiring harness has been upgraded (how would I tell?).

As a side note, you seem to have replaced/repaired/upgraded just about every system large and small on your boat; how long has that taken and what shape was she in when you bought her?

[/QUOTE]

1. Wiring Harness: [url]http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5078.0.html[/url](link is external) These are our C34 "Critical Upgrades." Please read all three pages. Read the links, like Larry suggested. Your C36 website has similar items. The wiring harness has two major issues: an ammeter in the cockpit, and the trailer pin connections wrapped in electrical tape. Maine Sail also just wrote this: [url]http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6682.0.html[/url](link is external)

2. We bought a pristine boat. Took years to get it "our way." Don't sweat it, take it step-by-step. Lots has to do with how you use your boat: marina hopper has less issues with electrical systems (i.e., big battery banks, living on the hook) than a "I wanna get away from the dock" approach that many of us have taken.

Your boat, your choice. Enjoy it all, it's rewarding and fulfilling. And, you have a great boat! :)

Stu Jackson, C34IA Secretary, C34 #224, 1986, SR/FK, M25 engine, Rocna 10 (22#)

Channel Islander's picture
Channel Islander
Offline
Joined: 10/8/11
Posts: 378

Larry, since I am a paid-up capital-M Member of the Association I have already begun to peruse the articles, which are fabulous. I'll certainly be using them as guides as I proceed and hope to eventually be able to add something of substance.

My problem is more along the lines of where to begin! The dimming lamps were just the first thing I noticed as I worked on the boat cleaning the interior, which I did first in order to make the interior sanitary and habitable. I know I need to spend time on the engine, and not just to familiarize myself with it; the inch of black gunk and water in the fuel filter was a dead giveaway. And since it helpfully rained heavily during the cleaning process, I was able to inspect for leaks and found one chainplate literally dripping into a cabinet. I guess those two issues will have to be next, but I can see that the electrical system will be close behind!

However, I am planning a little sail this afternoon in very light winds, just so's it's not all work :)

Nick Tonkin
*Former* Website Administrator, C36/375IA
*Former* owner, C36 tr/fk #255, Santa Barbara, CA

stu jackson c34's picture
stu jackson c34
Offline
Joined: 12/3/08
Posts: 1270

[QUOTE=Channel Islander;10726]
My problem is more along the lines of where to begin! [/QUOTE]

Hope you had a nice sail.

May I suggest: Make a list of all the things you KNOW about so far, and then prioritize them.

For instance, the lights would be low on my priority list. Why? They work, but they aren't perfect. And now you know why, right? Just don't try to turn them all on at the same time, this isn't a house! :)

But anything engine related should be. I put off doing a fuel filter replacement for years because I was deathly afraid that I wouldn't be able to bleed my engine. But I finally "got up the courage" because, way back in 1999 before these great message boards were available, I read up on how to do it, and finally did, successfully. You can do a search on this message board under "bleeding" which will find you lots of great hints, and probably links to our C34 tech wiki engine that I think I mentioned earlier.

Chainplates are easy, this C36 website has great information on that subject.

And if you want to learn about electrical systems, you could start here, in addition to reading on this website: [url]http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5977.0.html[/url](link is external)

All the best, continue to have fun. Think of it this way: you already have the cleaning part behind you! :D

Stu Jackson, C34IA Secretary, C34 #224, 1986, SR/FK, M25 engine, Rocna 10 (22#)

baysailor2000's picture
baysailor2000
Offline
Joined: 5/16/10
Posts: 218

I am not sure why electrical wiring upgrade is needed here - unless the light fixtures were changed with a brighter light bulbs. I would imagine that this caliber of boat would have the proper gauge of wire for the fixtures that were originally installed. So I would measure the voltage across the batteries when the lights are off then when they are on. also measure the voltage across the light fixture when they are on. It is very likely to be a bad ground connection at the battery terminal or just bad connection where all the light fixtures are connected such as the circuit beakers for the cabin lights. Since your lights dims unacceptably it may just be time to replace the batteries. Check the amount of water that is in it and add distilled water. Since you are also experiencing dimming even when the shore power is connected - then it looks like a bad ground from the battery.

Haro Bayandorian, 1999 C36 MKII, Sail La Vie #1787, M35B(link is external),
Coyote Point, San Mateo, CA.

Channel Islander's picture
Channel Islander
Offline
Joined: 10/8/11
Posts: 378

Thanks guys.

Stu, I am with you on making a list and plodding through it. I am very linear and tend to get frozen when faced with a need to multitask!

Haro, I suspect that there may indeed be some short somewhere. The daisy chain wiring in the panel that connects the fuses gets very hot to the touch when the lights are on, although in the middle column of fuses, not the left-hand one that actually contains the Cabin fuse/switch. I will bring a multimeter down and start poking around.

Have a great week everyone!

-nick

Nick Tonkin
*Former* Website Administrator, C36/375IA
*Former* owner, C36 tr/fk #255, Santa Barbara, CA

LCBrandt's picture
LCBrandt
Offline
Joined: 6/26/07
Posts: 1282

Wiring getting hot to the touch??? This is a red flag...a sure sign that you have electrical issues that affect the safety of the boat. Wiring should NOT be getting warm to the touch because of the current passing through them.

Get a good book on boat electrical systems (Charlie Wing's book, for example) and read it; then get a schematic and mark it up so that it represents your boat's unique system. You have a manual for your boat, I hope. The Tech Notes CD has most C36 manuals on it, and the manuals have a schematic of the DC system in them. A good place to start.

Larry Brandt
S/V High Flight #2109
Pacific Northwest, PDX-based
2002 C-36 mkII SR/FK M35B
 

Channel Islander's picture
Channel Islander
Offline
Joined: 10/8/11
Posts: 378

I'll be troubleshooting this electrical issue right away. So far it appears that the wiring connecting the fuses gets hot only when many cabin lamps are on. I turned them all off and the wires cooled, even though there is other electrical draw (refer, outlets). Plan to get a meter and play with turning the lamps on one by one.

Relatedly, how can I tell whether the wiring harness upgrade has been applied to my boat? There are instructions for performing the upgrade in the manuals binder, but I am not sure it's been done. At the engine control panel the ignition is with a key, not a button, but there's an ammeter, not a voltmeter.
What's the definitive indicator?

Thanks!

Nick Tonkin
*Former* Website Administrator, C36/375IA
*Former* owner, C36 tr/fk #255, Santa Barbara, CA

stu jackson c34's picture
stu jackson c34
Offline
Joined: 12/3/08
Posts: 1270

[QUOTE=Channel Islander;10737]

Relatedly, how can I tell whether the wiring harness upgrade has been applied to my boat? There are instructions for performing the upgrade in the manuals binder, but I am not sure it's been done. At the engine control panel the ignition is with a key, not a button, but there's an ammeter, not a voltmeter.
What's the definitive indicator?

Thanks![/QUOTE]

The link to that is in Reply #11, our C34 Critical Upgrades page. There must be much related to that on this website, too.

Stu Jackson, C34IA Secretary, C34 #224, 1986, SR/FK, M25 engine, Rocna 10 (22#)

Steve Frost's picture
Steve Frost
Offline
Joined: 12/14/07
Posts: 788

Nick,

If the light get to dim to read by, hold your book next to the wires on the breaker panel, you should be able to read by the flames of the iminent fire in that location.

You obviously have an electrical issue that does not need a voltmeter to trouble shoot. If you are finding hot wiring you have already found the source of the problem. Other than the lamps them selves nothing in the circuit should be getting hot, if it is you have a high resistance connection (corrosion or a loose terminal) that is causing the heat. Renew the connection and you will be cool.

Insatlling LED lights will lower the current draw but, it will not fix your problem it will just mask it for a while.

Cepheus dream
C36 MK I # 825
MK I Tech Editor No Mas

chs1517's picture
chs1517
Offline
Joined: 11/17/09
Posts: 113

Nick,

I had a similar problem with the "Daisy Chain" wires on the control panel. I discovered there was only one wire from the main battery switch supplying 12V to the switches and that wire, if I remember right, didn't seem to be all that heavy of a gauge. And to compound things there was one wire, also a small gauge, that bridged over to the second set of toggle switches.

When I first got my boat I had the frig, lights, radio and a few other switches on. Just by chance I was tinkering around the panel area. I detected what smelled like warm wires and found out that the wires were warm. I even found one wire warm enough it appeared to be bonding with another wire.

My solution was to remove the bridging wire that led from the one row of switches to the other. I then ran two separate heavier gauge wires from the battery switch and supplied separate power to each row of toggle switches.

After turning everything on I found all the wires were cool to the touch. I've been running with this modification for a couple of years and have had no problems. I don't know if this will help but it's worth looking at.

Chris

Chris Stewart
S/V "24~7"
1984 Catalina 36 Tall
Hull #251 M25
(SF Bay) Alameda, CA

baysailor2000's picture
baysailor2000
Offline
Joined: 5/16/10
Posts: 218

I was thinking of the same rewiring at the circuit panel as the one that Chs1517 has performed. It is hard to believe that a boat of this caliber will have such a sub standard wiring. Now I am going to have a look at my own panel. Thanks for the tip guys!:confused:

Haro Bayandorian, 1999 C36 MKII, Sail La Vie #1787, M35B(link is external),
Coyote Point, San Mateo, CA.

Channel Islander's picture
Channel Islander
Offline
Joined: 10/8/11
Posts: 378

Steve, I tried that but the pages kept getting singed :)

The hot wires in the control panel were what I first found. I'm going to follow Chris' suggestion and see if the columns of toggle switches can be fed with individual wires from the battery switch. Our boats are only four hull numbers apart!

But in the mean time I discovered a short of some kind in one of the lamps . . . the one in the way inside of the aft berth behind the companionway steps was not working, so I changed the blown bulb and very quickly the switch on the lamp became hot to the touch. I will disassemble that tomorrow and see if I can find the short.

But here's the real question I need help with. On this boat the overboard discharge through-hull for the holding tank is not used. I dunno if it was a requirement of his marina but the PO capped the through-hull (with a PVC plumbing cap, ugh!) and the only way to evacuate the tank is by pumping it out. In order, I assume, to prevent the macerator being turned on with nowhere to pump to (maybe after it happened once?), the PO simply disconnected the red wire leading from the Macerator toggle switch (at least he labelled it). The corresponding fuse is blown, and the hot wires specifically are the daisy chain loops between fuses, beginning with the macerator fuse and continuing and cooling for three or four hops.

Does having a blown fuse alone create some sort of overload on those daisy chain wires? My extremely limited understanding of how this electrical system works makes me think that it might. Or, does simply removing the hot lead create such an overload?

Thanks, friends,

- nick

Nick Tonkin
*Former* Website Administrator, C36/375IA
*Former* owner, C36 tr/fk #255, Santa Barbara, CA

Steve Frost's picture
Steve Frost
Offline
Joined: 12/14/07
Posts: 788

Nick,

Brush up on the regulations in your area regarding waste discharge, the wye valve must be saftied to the off position inside the five mile limit in my area. The penalty for discharging inside the limit is hefty, just the fine for not having the valve safetied is large. I would assume that most marinas in SoCal like the bay area have free pump out facilities, I have just gotten in the habit of pumping out everyother time I go out. If nothing else it gives you a chance to see what your crew has been eating, you can add indian corn to your diet for a bit of color.

Cepheus dream
C36 MK I # 825
MK I Tech Editor No Mas

Channel Islander's picture
Channel Islander
Offline
Joined: 10/8/11
Posts: 378

Pretty sure that was his live-aboard marina in a different harbor. No such reg here in SB; they dye-tab your head whenever you occupy a slip though. I will need the macerator pumpout to work since I frequently spend several days at a time out at our local islands. No problem reconnecting it, but I am wondering if one or other or both of the facts that the hot lead is disconnected and the fuse is blown, could heat up the wiring around the fuse socket?

Thanks,

- nick

Nick Tonkin
*Former* Website Administrator, C36/375IA
*Former* owner, C36 tr/fk #255, Santa Barbara, CA

Steve Frost's picture
Steve Frost
Offline
Joined: 12/14/07
Posts: 788

To generate heat in the circuit requires the circuit to conduct current, if the fuse is blown and the wire is disconnected, I do not believe it is could posibly be contributing to the heat in your circuit since it is no longer connected to the circuit.

Cepheus dream
C36 MK I # 825
MK I Tech Editor No Mas

Channel Islander's picture
Channel Islander
Offline
Joined: 10/8/11
Posts: 378

Hi friends,

Just wanted to report that I completed the upgrade on my electrical panel and things are looking much brighter!

Indeed there was a daisy-chain system connecting each fuse on the panel. The cabin lights were the last circuit in the chain, so the current had passed through almost two dozen contacts before arriving at the cabin circuit. Some of the daisy-chain jumper wires were melted and deformed (pic below, sorry for the poor focus). All of the contacts were dirty. Each fuse spade connector had a two-way adapter spade on it. Some of the toggle switches had additional circuits connected to them.

I installed a bus bar and drew current from the battery switch with 8-gauge wire. I removed all the splitter spade connectors and daisy chain wires and ran a connection to each fuse with new wire and terminals. Wore through two Dremel wire brush attachments cleaning the terminals and connectors that would stay. Took the two circuits leading out from the cabin lights switch with 14-ga. wire and placed them on each side of a very clean splitter spade terminal, and used 10-ga. between the fuse and switch, and bus bar and fuse.

As the day drew to a close and I finished the last circuit, the lights, which had originally caused me to investigate, it became dark and I realized that I could see MUCH better! Also the problem of the lights dimming as additional ones are lit has been eliminated.

For about $30 in parts I can see better and have eliminated a pretty serious fire risk. Very stoked. Thanks for all the advice, guys!

Nick Tonkin
*Former* Website Administrator, C36/375IA
*Former* owner, C36 tr/fk #255, Santa Barbara, CA

Attachments
tim_farrell's picture
tim_farrell
Offline
Joined: 3/15/11
Posts: 117

This is a great explanation of how you solved the problem. I have the same issue and will use this as a blueprint on how to fix it. Thanks much!

Tim Farrell
S.V. Kailua
C36 - 1986
Hull# CTY0678A886

TomSoko's picture
TomSoko
Offline
Joined: 2/15/07
Posts: 978

Nick,
Good for you!!!

Tom Sokoloski
C36/375IA Past Commodore
Noank, CT

Log in or register to post comments