Bud, are you implying that you have no solenoid in the system??? If that is the case, I strongly (no, make that *very strongly*) urge you to reconsider the set-up. The solenoid isn't there for mere convenience, but rather to save the boat in the event of a galley fire. Amperage is negligible if used as described below - the only current draw is during the use of the stove - but the importance of the solenoid cannot be overstated.

If you or your crew have a galley fire, such as a grease fire due to overheated oil in a skillet, or perhaps the corner of an over mitt gets too near the burner, the VERY FIRST THING to do is to TURN OFF the solenoid switch. This removes the source of the heat, by shutting off the propane at the tank. Only then, do you grab the fire extinguisher and fight the fire.

The skipper and crew need to make solenoid use a habit. Heck, I leave the tank valve ON for days, even weeks at a time; that's no big deal. But when using the stove I and my crew ALWAYS turn the solenoid switch ON, then turn the stove knob ON and light it. Then, immediately after turning the stove OFF, we flip the solenoid switch OFF. Make it a habit.

The Tee for the BBQ is located before the solenoid, therefore the solenoid only interrupts the propane going forward to the galley. The solenoid is not in series with the BBQ. I would vehemently argue that tee'ing into the propane line for the BBQ is much safer than using those 1 lb green propane cans. I consider every one of those cans a bomb-in-training. If stored anywhere within the boat (such as in the cockpit locker or lazarette), a leak in those cheap green cans (caused by corrosion, or manufacturing defect, or mishandling, or...) will allow the propane to find its way to the bilge. I will not allow one of the damn things to be on my boat. Period.

Bud, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. It seems like neither of us has convinced the other; but I am interested in what others are going to say. Maybe there's something I am not grasping about a possible critical emergency.

At the moment I'll stand by my interpretation, that in the event of a galley fire (let's assume a grease fire...frying oil in a skillet has just flared up) the solenoid is the first tool to use in solving the problem; only then does one reach for the extinguisher. In the case of no solenoid, the first reaction might be to reach for the fire extinguisher instead of accepting the (counter-intuitive) delay of climbing out the companionway, getting to the aft rail and turning off the tank, then returning down a companionway that might by now be dangerous to enter. To use only the extinguisher on the grease fire without removing the heat source doesn't make sense to me...the extinguisher is a one-shot deal.

Since references to the ABYC standard A-1 have been made, I draw your attention to the following:

A-1.7.3 A readily accessible manual or electrically
operated (e.g., solenoid) shut-off valve shall be installed in
the low or high-pressure line at the fuel supply. See the
requirements in A-1.7.6.1 for valve location requirements.

A-1.7.3.1 The valve(s) or its control must be operable
from the vicinity of the appliance(s) in the event of a fire at
any appliance(s). If the cylinder shut-off valve is readily
accessible from the vicinity of the appliance, the shut-off
valve on the supply line is not required.

A-1.7.6.1 LPG cylinders, cylinder valves, regulating
equipment, and safety devices shall be readily accessible,
secured for sea conditions, and protected from the weather
and against mechanical damage, and shall be:

A-1.7.6.1.1 installed in a ventilated location on the
exterior of the boat where escaping gases will flow directly
overboard, or,

A-1.7.6.1.2 if the escaping vapors will not flow directly
overboard, the cylinder shall be installed in a dedicated
locker meeting the requirements of A-1.8 LPG
LOCKERS.

These paragraphs are from ABYC A-1 dated July 2006 (the latest according to ABYC web site). If these paragraphs have subsequently been revised to change the intent or content, then I stand corrected.

I suspect the valve on an LPG cylinder (propane tank) mounted on the stern rail does not meet the requirement of A-1.7.3.1 since I don't consider a tank on the stern rail to be in the vicinity of the stove. Further, I don't believe that mounting the tank on the stern rail, with a sunbrella cover on the tank, meets the requirement for protection from weather or [U]mechanical damage[/U] per A-1.7.6.1

The electrical solenoid is held open electrically and is spring loaded closed so there is no electrical draw when shut off. If you consider in the event of a fire at the galley stove, the first reaction, I suspect, would be to grab the nearest fire extinguisher (dry chemical no doubt) and try to put the fire out. Most 5 ABC or 10 ABC dry chemical extinguishers will provide, at best, 10 or 12 seconds of extinguishing agent flow.

Consider what can happen if you abandon the fire for "a few seconds" to try and shut off the propane at the tank on the stern rail and then return to the fire to use the extinguisher. I suspect that it will take more than "a few seconds" to accomplish this, particularly in an emergency. Where as if you have an electrical shut off solenoid on the tank, with the switch in close proximity to the appliance, as required by the ABYC, you would save precious seconds that may help to prevent a fire becoming so large that it results in a total loss, of vessel or life.

Just my humble opinion.

I suppose the design department has been listening, on the 375, there are two built-in gas lockers at the back of the boat. Both drain overboard.

We turn the gas off when we leave the boat.
We also turn the solenoid on and off each time we use the gas stove. Its not that much of a hassle - the power switch is only two steps from the galley. When the switch is on, a red light glows, so is serves as a constant reminder that it is still on.

Since Larry asked for other comments:

First, I have high regard for both Bud and Larry based upon our dealings and their posting/contributions to our organization. My comments are not meant to take sides.

As for our usage and opinions:

We have the original setup on our boat with one LP tank in the vented locker and a solenoid valve with the switch located on the electrical panel. For better or worse, we have left our manual tank valve open for days at a time while cruising, but ALWAYS open/close the solenoid valve immediately before and immediately after using the stove. I must admit that using the manual valve to stop gas flow at the tank valve probably has a slightly lower risk than using the solenoid valve. The solenoid valve “should” be highly reliable, but is inherently somewhat less so than a manual valve.

In the event of a fire, our plan is to quickly close the solenoid valve, then grab the fire extinguisher we have near the companionway ladder opposite the galley. Personally, I feel better knowing that the solenoid valve has a 99.999% (just a guess) probability of doing the job, and doing it much more quickly than if I had to climb up to the tank.

On those few real long-term cruises we have done so far, we carry a spare 10 lb tank on a cradle made of Starboard mounted to the rail so that a leak would vent overboard. It is therefore somewhat vulnerable to damage, but I believe that to be unlikely. Given that we have only one vented locker, the rail mount seems to be the only other acceptable choice for a spare. I do check the vent in the LP locker regularly and have never found a problem, but I agree with Bud that it is always a possibility.

The potential consequences of a problem with LP are enormous (maybe fatal), so reducing risk is a must, in my view. The reality is that you will NEVER bring the risk of anything to zero, so you do the best you can and live your life.

Cheers,

Just to add to the discussion.

I also religiously use the solenoid switch before/after each and every use of the stove. The tank valve is opened when arriving at the boat, turned off when leaving. Given the choice, I'd prefer this to having to operate the valve every time.

On my 97 MKII, the propane locker is on the port side aft of the cockpit locker. The lid vents to the cockpit, which is open to the sea via the walkthrough transom. I figure that's ideal for dealing with a propane leak, even if the vent line is clogged; at most, a small amount of propane could be trapped below the tank in the locker itself, anything else would vent out through the lid and overboard.

I also store 2 propane bottles for the BBQ and a small bottle of gasoline for the outboard in the propane locker, above the tank. The lid just closes with that stuff in there and again, if one should leak, fumes would go overboard via the transom.

I'd not like to blow my boat up (or myself) and am pretty comfortable that I've got the propane and gasoline risk minimized. I'd [I][U]never, ever, [/U][/I]have a gasoline inboard engine on a boat. As a kid, I saw a powerboat explode spectacularly off of Cape May Point and burn to the waterline while going out to sea on the tide. I also know someone who had his 40' sport fishing boat explode, throwing him 50 feet from the fly bridge; his wife was hospitalized for 6 months. This [I]after[/I] he had run the blowers for 10 minutes and checked his bilge sniffers. Those two incidents convinced me of the importance of keeping flammables out of the bilge. I had the plastic bowl on the fuel filter of my C30 deform and leak a couple gallons of diesel into the bilge. :eek: I thanked my lucky stars it wasn't a gasoline engine.

Gary, I would bet that your Mk II propane locker has a hose from the bottom that vents to a small thru-hull nearby. You don't have to depend on propane leaks venting into the cockpit at the level of the lid.

Yes, it does have the hose. I should have clarified; what I meant was that, at worst, if that vent hose gets clogged by those pesky spiders, the propane locker would vent through the lid and hence, through the transom and overboard. Some propane would redoubtably be trapped below the tank, but if a fire ever got that far, I think that would be the least of your problems.....

I have to agree that Gary's point seems valid. In the event the designed locker vent was plugged, the overflow should vent out through the lid and have little chance of going anywhere but out the open transom.

I love these reasonable discussions. I used to partake in some open forums where 'flaming' each other was rampant. Offering a differing opinion was an act of war in many cases.

being a musician (amateur), I spend a lot of time at the harmony-central forums. talk about flaming..... And try looking at the responses to an article on CNN. All vestiges of civility seem to go out the window on the internet. This forum is the most civil I've ever seen. To everyone's benefit.

[QUOTE=bstreet;7054]We had exactly this setup on our last boat which we sold last August and the surveyor had zero issues with it, in fact stated rail mounts are safer than lockers due to the risk of the vent plugging without the owner's knowledge. Had no issue with the lack of a solenoid either.[/quote]

Quite honestly that surveyor was NOT following his own industry guidelines and can put himself at risk doing surveys that way. There are bad, this guy falls into that category IMHO, and good surveyors. A "good" surveyor would have caught that in a split second as a shut off is required near the appliance but not so you'd need to reach over a flame to shut it off.

[QUOTE=bstreet;7054]
It's kind of hypocritical to suggest that a boat needs to have a master shutoff somewhere at the appliance where it is easily reached when thousands of houses don't have one anywhere reachable. No solenoids here either. Can't remember seeing a fire extinguisher in anyone's house lately either. But it's all necessary on boats.

[/QUOTE]

It is not hypocritical it is the standard of practice for marine applications. Houses are different than boats in many regards. Are you using solid copper Romex on your boat? Wire nuts? Brass not bronze or Marelon valves below the water. Most metal in my house is painted steel but on my boat it is 316 SS or bronze to survive the marine environment.

Any good, and I use good carefully, NAMS or SAMS surveyor will flag your system as an "unsafe" installation for an insurance or re-sale survey. Both SAMS and NAMS guys are guided by the ABYC. Solenoids are required equipment for any ABYC builder or boat yard who is an ABYC member and also for surveyors to be guided by.

You can always do what you want on your boat, unless you require an insurance survey by a good surveyor, but to argue that by removing a safety item, you are "safer", is simply an odd argument.

The propane detection systems I install can shut off the solenoid AUTOMATICALLY or manually in the event of LPG bilge fumes. This could be due to a fitting or hose leak or a failure of the stove. Are you standing on your head with your nose in the bilge to monitor it?;)

A well installed solenoid by a careful installer would not have any hose between it and the hard tank piping. Most solenoids I have installed draw roughly .7 - 1 amps. A small dent in the bank during cooking.

Even if my wife and I cooked for four hours per day, never once happened in 20+ years, we'd draw our 375 Ah bank down by just 2.8 Ah's. Usually we are cooking less than 1 hour per day which means less than .7 Ah's..

As for fire extinguishers I have four in my house but I can simply run outside in the event of a fire. On a boat I would need to jump overboard into the ocean. Different safety guidelines for homes and boats which make sense for both applications. Last time I checked my house, and its propane lines, are not subjected to being thrown off ten to 12 foot waves for hours on end...;)

On our old Catalina the LPG locker was on the stern and even if the hose plugged it would have flowed out and right into the ocean as the lid for the LPG locker was on the scoop and below the cockpit floor.

Bud,

Just a couple thoughts, I too have propane as a cooking and heat source at home. The piping in my house is a bit more robust than what is onboard my boat, and even though I live in California my home system is subject to far less movement and vibration. My home is also subject to far less of a corrosive enviroment. Even living near active fault lines I have not felt the need to gimble our stove at home, though earth quake activated shut off valves out side the house are becoming popular and may be required on new structures.

My house does not have a very deep bilge or basement for fume buildup like my boat and most importantly, if I smell a leak at home I can run outside away from danger. My ability to walk on water is no better than my ability to turn water to wine.

[url]http://www.latitude38.com/lectronic/lectronicday.lasso?date=2010-11-10&d...

This guy was lucky.

[QUOTE=bstreet;7056]Then this was not well installed. Look at the attached picture, there's at least a foot of rubber in there between the tank and solenoid. That gives me zero confidence. That's what the locker looked like before we bought the boat. Plugged drain vent as well. None of this commented on by the surveyor. Safer than a rail mount and no solenoid? Not in my mind.

BTW, my mention of the amp draw was strictly in passing, it certainly is not a big issue in my decision.[/QUOTE]

As an ABYC member you would not catch me installing ANY hose between the regulator and the solenoid but this is my own perosnal preference and I often go above and beyond the ABYC standards.

That set up meets meets the ABYC standard, because it is all in the locker. I ideally disagree with that type of installation and won't personally do it but builders can because it is inside the locker.. That could be piped to fit it with the solenoid hard piped and I have done it in more cramped lockers than that.

Ditto, my insurance company also insures the boat only on the condition that the propane tank be manually closed when not in use. This is also pretty common practice around here for backyard BBQ's.

As for emergency use of the solenoid switch, the switch is located on the electrical panel in my boat - hardly the most convenient, or obvious place position in case of an emergency.

It really should be located near the galley and prominently labelled.

Bud,

Test how long it takes you to smell a propane leak WITHOUT your head being in the bilge. By the time you smell the propane it is often to late. A propane sniffer/solenoid device will cut the propane supply far faster than any human, who is not laying face down in the bilge 100% of the time.

We ALSO turn the tank valve off after each use BUT we sometimes forget due to HEF (human error factor). Our propane solenoid switch has a big [B][COLOR="Red"][SIZE="5"]RED[/SIZE][/COLOR][/B] LED constantly reminding us the solenoid and PROPANE is ON. We NEVER forget to flip that switch off but have forgotten the tank valve on a number of occasions.

I can't for the life of me figure how you are justifying that the removal of a redundant safety device such as a SHUT OFF solenoid could possibly be safer? Especially with how cautious you appear. There are still plenty of leak points INSIDE your vessel along the hose or the connection to the stove or INSIDE the stove that you may never sniff till it is too late. An automated sniffer/solenoid is far faster and far safer that the human nose on a boat...

Bud,

I have an overboard drain on my propane locker?

You are right I never check it. I have used the propane on my boat three times in four years, have no clue how much is left in the tank as I have not touched it other than to turn it on since purchasing my boat.

Steve

[QUOTE=Maine Sail;7061]Bud,

Test how long it takes you to smell a propane leak WITHOUT your head being in the bilge. By the time you smell the propane it is often to late. A propane sniffer/solenoid device will cut the propane supply far faster than any human, who is not laying face down in the bilge 100% of the time.

[/QUOTE]

If I may ask; how reliable are sniffers? Is there a way to test them, eg., sorta like a GFCI breaker?

Not sure if you saw my earlier post about the guy who's powerboat exploded after he'd run the blowers and checked the sniffers; hence the question. I'd love to have something checking the bilge for gas leaks, as you are correct, I never do. The only time I ever remember giving the bilge a sniff was when I arrived at the boat and found I'd left the propane tank on from the prior weekend. I opened all the hatches for about 10 minutes, then went below and checked the bilge. Otherwise, never. Having a sniffer would give me a higher level of confidence, but only if reliable enough to depend on them.

You could easily test a sniffer by discharging a bit of propane near the sniffer. just use a propane blowtorch and don't light it. A little bit of propane will not nuke the boat before the sniffer goes off.

[QUOTE=Nimue;7065]You could easily test a sniffer by discharging a bit of propane near the sniffer. just use a propane blowtorch and don't light it. A little bit of propane will not nuke the boat before the sniffer goes off.[/QUOTE]

I just use a butane lighter stick. They sniff propane and butane. They are fairly reliable but can fail. I keep a spare sensor on-board and test it about every four weeks or so. If you keep a dry bilge they last for a long while but they don't like a damp bilge quite as much..

After seeing all the concern over the LPG internal lockers and detection of gas in the bilge - a thought (rare for me) occurred. What about putting a sensor at the source - In the locker? The monitor I'm looking at can accommodate up to three so my thought was one in the bilge and one in the locker. If the tank, lines or solenoid spring a leak - well you'd know about it before you realized your vents were plugged. Seems a risk for false alarms but maybe worth it?