Is my solar plan reasonable

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Capt. Sam
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Is my solar plan reasonable

OK, I've read and re-read the many helpful post about adding solar panels and I'm teetering on the brink of of ordering a kit from Defender that includes two flexible, 100 watt panels including a controller.
That will be a total of 200 watts. I'll mount them both on the bimini which as we know is not shaded by our high aspect ratio main booms.  I've spent a lot of time calculating my consumption. I have a fairly sophisticated battery monitoring system with a shunt and can measure the amp consumption of each device aboard. The results are that I have my consumption estimated at:  80 amp hr per 24 hours at anchor (mostly the fridge and stereo ) and 140 amp hr per 24 hours underway, (adds the auto pilot, gps etc. ) (12 sailing in daylight, 12 sailing at night, no motor).
The kit from Defender is a budget unfriendly $1,000.
My question to you wise and much more experienced people is, does this make sense and will it keep me from having to run the Honda i2000 and disturbing the peace in all those pristine anchorages that I plan to visit? All comments appreciated.
Thanks
Sam

Capt. Sam Murphy
1994 Catalina 36, Hull 1327
Shoal draft, two cabin model.
Panama City, Florida

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benethridge
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I don't know but Nigel Calder's book has a really good section with form to fill out and is how I calculated mine.

Ben Ethridge
Miami, FL
1984 MK1 Hull# 263

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mutualfun
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Sam. Here is what we have and it works well. I have 240 watts of solar and a kiss wind gen. I have everything led and our fridge draws 5.4 amps. That is our biggest draw. We have been living 5 to 6 months on the hook the past 4 years. With out the wind gen I could not make it with out running the motor. With what we have we usually can set for weeks at a time with out any extra need to recharge the batteries. I would say 200 watts is to small if just solar and not using the Honda.

Randy Sherwood
Mutualfun 1990 # 1057
T/R W/K M35a
Home. Charlotte, Mi.
Boat. St Augustine,Fl.

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Capt. Sam
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Thanks Randy, That is what I was thinking but needed a conformation. Can you tell me which solar panels you installed and where you mounted them?  I will probably just go for the solar and plan on running the Honda when needed as i haven't convinced myself to add the Wind yet.
Thanks
Sam

Capt. Sam Murphy
1994 Catalina 36, Hull 1327
Shoal draft, two cabin model.
Panama City, Florida

Maine Sail
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A 100W panel, installed horizontally on a bimini, will yield anywhere from about 10Ah - 34Ah per day. Two of them should be able to deliver 20Ah - 68Ah each solar day. Sure some days you may exceed 34Ah per panel but this would be a super optimal day. This is of course assuming a top-notch installation with minimal voltage loss in the wiring and an MPPT controller set up to get the most from the panels.

Be aware that semi-flexible solar panels, other than Aurinco, Solbian and Gioco, are made in China and are of rather questionable quality. They most often utilize "orphan" solar cells no one else wants and they are often riddle with "micro-cracking" right out of the gate.. If you want to buy a Chinese knock-off most of them all come out of the same factory and have numerous brand names slapped onto them so buy from a company that will stand behind the product. ALWAYS test these panels before installation to ensure they are meeting spec. I test lots of Chinese semiflexible panels and a good chunk of them do not meet spec.

If price is an issue I would urge you to consider going rigid frame panels...

-Maine Sail
https://www.marinehowto.com/

 

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newguy
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Even if your PV cells were able to deliver 12 amps peak (about 60 ah/day), please be aware that figure is only valid for a system that can 100% utilize that power.  As your refrigerator cycles on and off and your batteries come up in SOC, the draw power will be mismatched to your PV output.  You also have to allow for cloudy days.  If you have one cloudy day, not only does your battery bank have to support the entire load, but the following sunny days have to make up for the missed day.  This means that you have to substantially over-design your system if you expect to rely 100% on PV.  200 watts will not allow for these variables.  Much better to have a PV system that delivers high amounts of energy to allow the batteries to come out of absorption before the end of the the day AND support the on/off cycle of the refrigerator AND be able to make up for missed days.  Assuming you have a high capacity house bank, 300 watts would be a bare minimal starting point.  But one cloudy day and you'll be in unrecoverable deficit, so add another 100 watts for this scenario.  BTW, I've never met anyone who said they had excessive PV capacity....

Nick Caballero
Retired C36/375IA Mk II Technical Editor

Maine Sail
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The sheer reality of solar on monohull cruising boats (a real estate issue) is that unless you use your alternator or other source to punch through bulk charging there is rarely enough solar hours in a day to recharge a lead acid battery to 100% SOC. So each day the usable capacity walks down a bit unless you help the solar along.

A basically brand new Trojan flooded battery, when charged at .15C, still takes approx 7 hours to hit 100% SOC from 50% SOC. Even expensive AGM batteries, in good health, can take 5.5+ hours at high .2C and .4C charge rates. As batteries age & sulfate the charging process takes even longer. As was mentioned above you can't go too large with solar...

For a bit of perspective a .15C charge rate on a 450Ah bank would be a charge current of about 68A. This 7 hours assumes no "premature floatulation" as most solar controllers and smart chargers will do. Premature floatulation only extends the time it takes to get back to 100% SOC, when we drop to float before the battery is actually full.....

-Maine Sail
https://www.marinehowto.com/

 

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mutualfun
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The 3 80 watt panels i have are Kyocera. They are hard framed and mounted on a bar 12 inches our 
hard bimini. That way I am able to tit them to just a bit extra  amps. Just like now I am in St Augustine and making power thru the night. It is nice to the other comment's.

Randy Sherwood
Mutualfun 1990 # 1057
T/R W/K M35a
Home. Charlotte, Mi.
Boat. St Augustine,Fl.

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Capt. Sam
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OK Randy I'm shopping for the Kirocera pannels. thanks to all for the great knowledge and advice.
Sam
I'm always got the Honda i2000 back up.
S

Capt. Sam Murphy
1994 Catalina 36, Hull 1327
Shoal draft, two cabin model.
Panama City, Florida

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mutualfun
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Sam. I should have added that I do believe those 80 watt panels are not made no more.

Randy Sherwood
Mutualfun 1990 # 1057
T/R W/K M35a
Home. Charlotte, Mi.
Boat. St Augustine,Fl.

Bruce Stanley
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My needs for Solar have been met with 2x80 ​hard framed and mounted on bars on the Bimini.
Many C36 Brains Trusts offered me valuable advice. In the end, I went for the 2x80watts and I am in the process of adding a 70amp Balmar with Smart Regulator (ARS-5) for alternator top ups.
Steve Blakeslee sent me excellent photos on his 200w installation. I based my installations on his.
Living in sunny Sydney Australia, I am able to run the power hungry fridge for 7 days straight (while I am away from the boat) and still have both battery banks full.
We do not live on the boat. The Honda i2000 was considered, but we decided it was over-kill.
My 2x80 DIY Solar insulation cost ~AU$1000 (including a Smart Regulator and Remote Monitor).
I choose the 70Amp Balmar with ARS-5 Regulator over the 100Amp because the 70Amp did not require the additional cost of the extra dual footed pulleys etc. The additional heat generated by the 100w did not seem a good idea. See photo attached.
 
Bruce Stanley - Fantastic Trio
C36Mk II Hull #2282
Fin keel, furling main, M-35B, 3 bladed Kiwi Feathering Prop and 3 blade fixed prop
Balmar 70 Amp Alternator & ARS-5 regulator, Oberdorfer conversion
Sydney Australia
 

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Many thanks to everyone for the helpful comments. MainSail is right in that real estate turns out to be my main issue, I had about settled on two Kyrocera 145 watt panels until I did some finite measuring and can't find any way of mounting them on the bimini, or anywhere else for that matter, due to there being insufficient horizontal space. My bimini is big enough for both panels but the mainsail viewing window, (which I rely on continuously) and the split back stays break up the space so that I can't fit both 59" x 26" panels there. Has anyone else found a solution to this issue? Any help appreciated I'm about to believe there's just not space enough aboard a C36 to get enough wattage.
Help!
Sam

Capt. Sam Murphy
1994 Catalina 36, Hull 1327
Shoal draft, two cabin model.
Panama City, Florida

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[quote=Capt. Sam]Has anyone else found a solution to this issue? Any help appreciated I'm about to believe there's just not space enough aboard a C36 to get enough wattage.
Help!
Sam[/quote]

I think I have a solution.  I have 400 watts on the bimini now, and room for another 400, if I need, but so far 800w would be a huge waste of the sun :-), ie. by noon, they have topped off my 430 amp-hour battery bank...and yes, I have a refrigerator, and I live in South Florida...and no, I'm not cheating by running the shore charger, i.e. I either have one or the other hooked up.
 
These are all rigid Renology 100w panels I bought on Amazon.  I beefed up the bimini frame to handle the weight / wind pressure load.  (With all panels up, I can do chin-ups on and crossbar without bending them, so they seem pretty strong to me.)  The two rear ones currently split the backstay, with the split running fore and aft.  I removed the bimini canvas entirely, i.e. the panels themselves shade me from the sun and rain.  I have to build a "rain gutter" down the center one of these days - no biggie.

The panels are mounted with quick-releases, so that before a storm hits, I can get them down and below in about 10 minutes.  The panels each only weigh about 20 pounds and are not unwieldy.

The only downside of this setup is that it add quite a bit of weight in the rear  (That would be the primary advantage of the semi-flexible panels, I think.)  But then again, even if I put up 800w, it's only about as much as a single avg weight person.

I will send pics when I get a chance.

Ben Ethridge
Miami, FL
1984 MK1 Hull# 263

Maine Sail
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[quote=benethridge][quote=Capt. Sam] ie. by noon, they have topped off my 430 amp-hour battery bank...and yes, I have a refrigerator, and I live in South Florida...and no, I'm not cheating by running the shore charger, i.e. I either have one or the other hooked up.[/quote]

 
There is always a venerable boat-load of confusion when statements like these are made.

If topped up means returning the bank to 100% SOC this is as near a physical impossibility as there is especially if you started at 50%-60% SOC and this is due to charge acceptance near the top end of charge... Even when starting at 85% SOC the time is still well in excess of 4+ hours due to the poor charge efficiency in the top 15%..

Even basically new AGM batteries, when charged at .4C or 40% of Ah capacity (40A for a 100Ah battery or 172A for a 430Ah bank), still take 5.5 hours to go from 50% SOC to 100% SOC. 

If topped up means the charge controller went into float this is entirely possible but it also means the controller is really not doing its job correctly. I call this premature floatulation...

It takes about 7+ hours to charge even a brand new, or a basically new unsulfated flooded battery to 100% SOC from 50% SOC and that is at .15C which would be about 65A on a 430Ah bank... As the batteries age or sulfate, or the controller prematurely drops to float, as most do, then the time to 100% SOC takes even longer. Dropping to float prematurely only extends the time to 100%.

It is not uncommon for a flooded bank to need in excess of 7-8+ hours of charging, at absorption voltage, to reach 100% SOC.

I think the term topped up often needs more clarification..

-Maine Sail
https://www.marinehowto.com/

 

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benethridge
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Well, the Victron battery monitor says 100% SOC...and yes I did RTFM and set it up accordingly...and the charge controller goes into float, though I wasn't really watching carefully to see which one "topped off" first.  Not sure what difference it makes since they both "topped off" around noon.  Now, of course, this is on a reasonably sunny Florida day.   I kept this going for about a week, just to make sure that it wouldn't slowly lose SOC over time...but it didn't.  Some days it never made it back to 100% SOC coz it was cloudy, but then the next day it would by sunny and by, say, 1 or 2:00 it would be topped of. 

I admit this was no scientific experiment and I have no intention of becoming a technical expert on batteries, not to your level anyway.  There are too many other things I want to learn about sailing.  There are SO many things that can kill us out there.  These things I'm also trying to learn.  Just doesn't seem like batteries are high on that list. 

Your first statement smacks of arrogance.  You could have left it out and made the same point without hurting feelings. Not a great way to make friends and keep you business going.

Ben Ethridge
Miami, FL
1984 MK1 Hull# 263

Maine Sail
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[quote=benethridge]Well, the Victron battery monitor says 100% SOC...and yes I did RTFM and set it up accordingly...and the charge controller goes into float, though I wasn't really watching carefully to see which one "topped off" first.  Not sure what difference it makes since they both "topped off" around noon.  Now, of course, this is on a reasonably sunny Florida day.   I kept this going for about a week, just to make sure that it wouldn't slowly lose SOC over time...but it didn't.  Some days it never made it back to 100% SOC coz it was cloudy, but then the next day it would by sunny and by, say, 1 or 2:00 it would be topped of. [/quote]

This is one of the inherent issues with Ah counters. Solar current and premature float can trick them into resetting to 100% SOC before the batteries are actually at 100% SOC. These are great devices but they are often not be telling the owner the whole truth. The article below delves really deeply into the intricacies of Ah counters and the why's and how's of how they can get to the point of presenting an owner with misinformation.

Programming a Battery Monitor

[quote=benethridge]I admit this was no scientific experiment and I have no intention of becoming a technical expert on batteries, not to your level anyway.  There are too many other things I want to learn about sailing.  There are SO many things that can kill us out there.  These things I'm also trying to learn.  Just doesn't seem like batteries are high on that list.[/quote]

Absolutely!

[quote=benethridge]Your first statement smacks of arrogance.  You could have left it out and made the same point without hurting feelings. Not a great way to make friends and keep you business going.[/quote]

I sincerely apologize for that, it was not my intent at all to hurt any feelings or to come across as arrogant. My intent, as always, is to help folks better understand their boats electrical systems or, in this case, the charging process..

There are many things that can make a boat owner believe their batteries are charged by noon, or shortly there after, but only in rare circumstances is this actually true. Battery acceptance determines how quickly the batteries can be charge to 100% and we can't change the speed at which a battery charges to 100%. 

Again, I apologize for the tone of my post, especially if it came off as arrogant, that was not my intent. Clearly I should have re-read it before hitting send...

-Maine Sail
https://www.marinehowto.com/

 

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benethridge
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Thanks, MaineSail.  No worries.  Apparently it was an unintended tone anyway...and I highly respect your opinion.  You and Nigel Calder are my best go-to sources for information on these subjects.

Ben Ethridge
Miami, FL
1984 MK1 Hull# 263

FlyMeAway
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Posts: 241

I haven't sprung for a solar system but I've paid more and more attention to boats in my marina that do have them.

One popular configuration is to mount on the bimini plus the cabintop or dodger and on folding mounts attached to the stanchions. You have the issue of shade from the sail and boom on one side of the boat, which means that you aim for a system where either port or starboard will give you the necessary amperage, and then at anchor you have the entire overbuilt system to really top off your batteries.

This does have the downside of being expensive... But it seems to be what the solar serious small-boat monohull sailors go for. 

David
s/v Portmanteau
Hull #2133 -- 2003 MKII
Seattle, WA

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After benefiting from the helpful comments hereon, and studying further, I'm now thinking my best solution might be to buy the "Go-Power" solar flex panel kit (2 panels 100 watt each) and the Go-Power expansion panel and kit ( 100 watt),for a total of 300 watts, And mount the two on each side of the bimini and the third on the  dodger roof.
Any thoughts? MaineSail, any experience with the "Go-Power" product? I'm calling the company monday to find out where the flex panels are made, worry  about what  you said about foriegn made flex solar.
Thanks
Sam

Capt. Sam Murphy
1994 Catalina 36, Hull 1327
Shoal draft, two cabin model.
Panama City, Florida

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benethridge
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Here are the pictures I promised.

One shows the four solar panels.  I got the stainless steel supporting mounts from EMarine Systems in Fort Lauderdale. 

Another shows one of the middle supporting strut (angling down from the center of the wooden piling to the right side of the ropes) and gthe forward supporting strut on the far right edge of the picture.  It attaches to the upper part of a stanchion (not shown).

The third shows the aft supporting strut at the far right edge of the dinghy.

As you can see, there is room for another four which would bring me up to 800 and I think the beefed up bimini frame will hold the weight ok in all but a major storm (in which case I plan to take them all down).

 

Ben Ethridge
Miami, FL
1984 MK1 Hull# 263

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Panel frame pic

Ben Ethridge
Miami, FL
1984 MK1 Hull# 263

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Other panel frame pic.

Ben Ethridge
Miami, FL
1984 MK1 Hull# 263

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Other panel frame pic.

Ben Ethridge
Miami, FL
1984 MK1 Hull# 263

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William Matley
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Just thought I'd share my solar panel installation.

Picture speaks for itself.

Bill Matley

Bill Matley
Duncan Bay Boat Club
Cheboygan, Michigan
Lakes Huron, Michigan,
Canadian North Channel
"Spirit of Aloha" Hull #1252

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Very nice!

Nick Caballero
Retired C36/375IA Mk II Technical Editor

dpower
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When we were on our annual spring cruise, we noticed a semi flexible solar panel installation. They were mounted directly on the bimini by zippers sewn on the edges of the panels and on the the bimini. This process avoids the "oil derrick" appearance of additional stainless brackets and gives a very clean appearance. We have been in contact with Emarine in Ft. Lauderdale which has designed a system using 2 95 watt semi flexible Gioco panels and a Blue Sky MPPI controller. The panels would be sufficient to meet our 60 amp daily requirement and would be located in front of our split backstays. We have been told that the shading at times from the backstays is not the problem it once was. What experience have any of you had with shading, i.e. sharp shadowing or diffused shadow line? Another option would be 2 75 watt panels located to the outside of the backstays. In addition, we also came across a Catalina that went the Defender route with the 2 100 panels that Sam was considering and used velcro to attach them to his bimini. He was pleased with their performance. He came all the way down from New York, mostly on the outside, and had no issues with the installation.

David S. Power
Two If By Sea #1687
Burnt Store Marina
Punta Gorda, FL

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