I was checking the oil level before heading out for a sail and the dipstick was very clean and not registering any oil in the pan. With further checking it appears that all of the oil has drained into the bilge. A couple of facts about my setup:
a. 1987 Mark I with M25XP
b. Oil Pan has the extension tube used to remove oil on the front
c. No oil loss in the past. every oil change previously I removed 3.5 - 4 qt of oil.
To me this appears to be a leak in the oil pan. Could the leak be elsewhere and have the same results?
I didn't have the cleaning products or a way to contain the oily rags and oily bilge water (bilge pump turned off now) so I'm going to try the following:
1. Wipe down the bottom of the oil pan
2. clean area under the motor
3. place absorbent pads under the motor
4. Wipe and clean the oil extraction hose (it may have rubbed against the block and created a pin hole)
5. pour in oil
6. look for leaks on the pads.
Are there any other suggestions on where I should look?
TIA,
Ralph
Still a Thrill # 765
WK, STD Rig
Lake Texoma, TX
Although the drain hose is the #1 suspect, check the oil filter.
Nick Caballero
Retired C36/375IA Mk II Technical Editor
Ralph,
I had a similar experience with a 1984 Catalina 30 with an M25. I thought the oil pan went as the bilge was containing all the oil. The engine sat very low and close to the bilge being under the galley sink. It turned out that the dipstick tube was a steel seamed pipe and the tube split in the seam near the bottom of the tube, so you may wish to check that
Gary Bain
S/V "Gone With The Wind"
Catalina 36', Hull #: 1056, Year: 1990, Engine: M-35
Standard Rig
Moored: Boothbay Harbor, Maine
Home: Auburn, Maine
I think I have the same problem Gary, oil looks like it is leaking from the dipstick tube. How did you fix it? Did you have to hoist the motor?
Hummina
1987 Catalina 36 MKI
#741
Bayfield, WI. Usually.
I removed the tube (no small task) that held the tube to the oil pan and had a fiberglass/epoxy patch and wound it around the tube for a temporary repair. Never leaked again. The 2 screws and the location were the most difficult part. Seems it took 3 hours to back one of the screws out and of course, put it back in. The Cat 30 engine was in a much tighter space so should be easier with the 36.
Gary Bain
S/V "Gone With The Wind"
Catalina 36', Hull #: 1056, Year: 1990, Engine: M-35
Standard Rig
Moored: Boothbay Harbor, Maine
Home: Auburn, Maine
I would look into Nick's oil filter idea. My first year with my boat, no oil leaks, did an end of year oil change. Second year I had a leak. Finally took off the oil filter I had put on, which the PO had left me. There was a small crack in the sealing ring. A little oil goes a long way to look like hell in the bilge!
Gary Matthesen
"Holiday"
1987 #50646
Oyster Bay Long Island NY
I believe that I have found the source of my leak. It looks like it is leaking from where the dipstick holder attaches to the oil pan. However, it's difficult to get to the attachment point without raising the engine and getting a wrench on the bolts. Hopefully it is only loose bolts or a leaky dipstick gasket.
A couple of questions:
1. If it is only a faulty dipstick assembly, where is a source for purchasing a new one.
2. If it is the oil pan, is a replacement from Kubota a viable option? base on what I have seen in my research is that the dipstick has to be added to the Kubota pan. Is this a good option or should I look at the Universal oil pan replacement?
TIA,
Ralph
Still a Thrill # 765
WK, STD Rig
Lake Texoma, TX
Even if it is loose bolts I would suggest taking off and cleaning the mating surfaces. There is a gasket there that if bolts were loose would be warped slightly and may never make a great seal.
Matt
Mary Lynne
Annapolis, MD
1984 C36
Universal M25XPB
Matthew Schubert
S/V Mary Lynne #436
Annapolis/Newport
1985 C-36 M25XPB
Thanks everyone for your suggestions and advice. Currently, I'm having the mechanic assess where the leak is and we are starting with the dipstick/oil pan connection.
I'm going to do a search to find the article on how to use the boom to raise the motor so thatwe can get to the bottom of the motor. Otherwise, we'll have toi pull the boat and use a crane :-(
Thanks
Ralph
Still a Thrill # 765
WK, STD Rig
Lake Texoma, TX
[quote=StillaThrill]
I'm going to do a search to find the article on how to use the boom to raise the motor so thatwe can get to the bottom of the motor. Otherwise, we'll have toi pull the boat and use a crane :-(
Thanks
[/quote]
Ralph -
The article is here:
www.catalina36.org/members/technical/maintenance/lifting-heavy-items-or-boat-boom
As an alternative to the boom: I lifted my engine (when replacing the motor mounts) by attaching a come-along to a wooden 4x4 laid athawrt the companionway opening.
Matthew Chachère
s/v ¡Que Chévere!
(Formerly 1985 C36 MKI #466 tall rig fin keel M25)
2006 Catalina Morgan 440 #30.
Homeported in eastern Long Island, NY
The mechanic used the 4x4 board across the companionway method to raise the engine and it was determined that the oil pan needs to be replaced. I'm now searching for a new oil pan source.
Thanks
Ralph
Still a Thrill # 765
WK, STD Rig
Lake Texoma, TX
Let me know what you find! I think I have the same problem.
Did the transmission have to be disconnected before lifting? How much is involved in that?
Hummina
1987 Catalina 36 MKI
#741
Bayfield, WI. Usually.
[quote=jhenderson]Let me know what you find! I think I have the same problem.
Did the transmission have to be disconnected before lifting? How much is involved in that?[/quote]
The mechanic used a 4x4 across the companionway to lift the motor. He disconnected the shaft from the transmission to raise the motor to remove the oil pan and dipstick holder. They both need to be replaced. The cost from Universal for all of the replacement parts was $1175.00. I ordered the parts from Kubota and they will be $250.00. Yeah!!
Since a new dipstick holder would cost $400.00, I decided to use the original dipstick hole on the port side of the block. It's not as accessible, but it will work for me.
Ralph
Still a Thrill # 765
WK, STD Rig
Lake Texoma, TX
Ralph,
If you can determine the correct part # these folks might have it
https://parts.mbtractor.com/
Gary Bain
S/V "Gone With The Wind"
Catalina 36', Hull #: 1056, Year: 1990, Engine: M-35
Standard Rig
Moored: Boothbay Harbor, Maine
Home: Auburn, Maine
The the M25XP is based on the D950 block. That block is used in the Kubota B7200-series tractor, among may others. DISCLAIMER: double-check this information before ordering the oil pan and gasket. Here's the manual: https://www.catalina36.org/members/technical/manuals/kubota-d950-parts-m...
Nick Caballero
Retired C36/375IA Mk II Technical Editor
As Nick says double check. I saw some conversation on sailnet that the dipstick for the marinized engine is on the oil pan and clearly here it shows it elsewhere.
Gary Bain
S/V "Gone With The Wind"
Catalina 36', Hull #: 1056, Year: 1990, Engine: M-35
Standard Rig
Moored: Boothbay Harbor, Maine
Home: Auburn, Maine
This is better: http://www.marinedieseldirect.com/catalogs/catalog_group.php?owner=mdd&p....
Nick Caballero
Retired C36/375IA Mk II Technical Editor
Thanks everyone for the parts references. I'm picking up the old oil pan to take to the Kubota dealer. As you can see by the prices listed in the link provided by Nick, to replace the oil pan and dipstick assembly the cost would be $1175.00. So I'm going the Kubota route.
The service manager told me the dipstick assembly needs to be replaced, but I have not seen it, so I'm not sure what is wrong with it. I'm thinking that using the original dipstick hole (shown as #18 - plug) and a new $10 dipstick will suffice. I just need to check and see if the access is blocked in this location.
I'll let you know what I find.
Ralph
Still a Thrill # 765
WK, STD Rig
Lake Texoma, TX
One of the great things (I say this somewhat facetiously) about following the posts on this site is that one can learn well in advance about all the things that most likely eventually will go wrong on one's old boat -- from those who've had to cope with it before (thus, I've known in advance about such dreaded calamities as the exhaust riser failure, worn out prop shaft tube, and some other nasty repairs that all eventually came my way).
The oil leak issue is one I was hoping to avoid, but alas, this weekend while putting the boat to bed for the winter I discovered that apparently I'm now going to get this T-shirt as well. I can't tell yet where the leak is coming from, but the pan does seem rather rusty. This will unfortunately be this years' big winter/spring project.
Ralph, do let us know how this turned out: did you end up with the Kubota oil pan and dipstick? And how hard was it to undo those 18 bolts that hold the oil pan in (I'm imagining that after 30 years the ones on mine may be, um, troublesome).
And anyone else who has dealt with this, your pearls of wisdom will be appreciated.
Matthew Chachère
s/v ¡Que Chévere!
(Formerly 1985 C36 MKI #466 tall rig fin keel M25)
2006 Catalina Morgan 440 #30.
Homeported in eastern Long Island, NY
The mechanic completed the oil pan replacement. I use all Kubota parts; oil pan, bolts and gasket. The cost was around $300.00 compared to the $1100 from Universal. However, I had to relocate the dipstick to the port side of the engine. It's not as convenient as having it in the oil pan, but it is not that difficult to get to.
The mechanic used a 4x4 over the companion way with a come a long to raise the engine. My old oil pan had several rust spots that leaked and the bolts attaching the dipstick holder had rusted to the point that they could not be removed. Even with all of the rust the mechanic was able to remove all of the bolts on the pan.
I ordered parts from https://parts.mbtractor.com/ (link is external) and used the diagrams that Nick referenced to make sure I was ordering the correct parts.
I've run the engine and checked the oil level and there does not seem to be a leak anymore.
Let me know if you have additional questions.
Ralph
Still a Thrill # 765
WK, STD Rig
Lake Texoma, TX
[quote=StillaThrill] ...However, I had to relocate the dipstick to the port side of the engine. It's not as convenient as having it in the oil pan, but it is not that difficult to get to....
[/quote]
Thanks, Ralph, for this information. Good to know that unbolting was possible after all these years.
If I do have to replace the pan (gulp!) I'd certainly like to use the less expensive replacement. But in my research on this, I've read that the reason for the dipstick location on the "marinized" Kubota engine was not so much because of access issue, but rather because the stock dipstick location on the Kubota (i.e., what would be portside for us) will give an inaccurate reading because of the engine angle when installed on our boats (i.e., the slope to the stern). Wondered whether you (or anyone else) has come across this issue?
Matthew Chachère
s/v ¡Que Chévere!
(Formerly 1985 C36 MKI #466 tall rig fin keel M25)
2006 Catalina Morgan 440 #30.
Homeported in eastern Long Island, NY
I can see where the angle could be an issue. I got a new dipstick and when we added the 4 quarts of oil we noticed where it was on the dipstick and that became my new level. I guess time will tell if it will be accurate.
Ralph
Still a Thrill # 765
WK, STD Rig
Lake Texoma, TX
StillaThrill,
Did the Kubota pan have a spot for the dipstick? Looking at this diagram, it doesn't look like it. https://www.catalina36.org/sites/default/files/technical/attachments/Kub...
My dipstick holder is still in fine shape, so I'd like to try to reuse it at the correct spot, but I would have to have a fabricator add the base for the dipstick to the pan if there is no base on the other side.
Hummina
1987 Catalina 36 MKI
#741
Bayfield, WI. Usually.
The M25 on our 1986 C30 sat low enough to put the bottom/back of the oil pan into the bilge water- creating thick rust and undoubtedly a future leak for the next owner. If the same vintage 36 has a similar design, I would suggest a PSS shaft seal, or use "Dripless" packing for the stuffing box to address the root issue and save the oil pan. We have used the newer packing- it virtually elimnates water entry from the shaft, and runs only slightly above the ambient temperature becuse it conducts heat so well.
Paul & Wendy Keyser
"First Light"
Rye NH
2005 C36 MKII #2257
Wing, M35B
[quote=jhenderson]
Did the Kubota pan have a spot for the dipstick? Looking at this diagram, it doesn't look like it. https://www.catalina36.org/sites/default/files/technical/attachments/Kub...
My dipstick holder is still in fine shape, so I'd like to try to reuse it at the correct spot, but I would have to have a fabricator add the base for the dipstick to the pan if there is no base on the other side. [/quote]
I don't think the Kubota pan has a spot for the dipstick, precisely because the stock (non-marinized) Kubota has a hole for the dipstick near the bottom of the block, on what would be the port side (see page 7 of the manual you linked in your post). On our boats, that hole has a plug in it, and the dipstick is relocated to the starboard side, using the fitting directly to the pan.
There is a gasket between the dipstick tube and the oil pan on our engines. I replaced this, as well as the gasket between the pan and the block, and our oil leak vanished. (Not an easy nor pleasant job: first had to disconnect the engine, hoist it up about 6 inches for access, and reach around underneath to undo the 18 bolts that hold the pan to the block, and then scrape off all the old gasket materials. A job that called for a fair amount of 4 letter words and Advil).
Matthew Chachère
s/v ¡Que Chévere!
(Formerly 1985 C36 MKI #466 tall rig fin keel M25)
2006 Catalina Morgan 440 #30.
Homeported in eastern Long Island, NY
Yeah, my engine is hanging a couple feet off the floor as we speak. The pan has some holes in it at the thin parts between the bolt holes and a pin hole in the pan itself.
Since a new pan from FrogMarine or any other marine stores is ~$600 and ~$60 for a gasket, and a new one at Kubota, with gasket, is ~$120, I'm considering going the Kubota route and paying a local welding/fabrication place to add the dipstick mount (my dipstick is fine).
My worry is that the Kubota one has a dipstick mount already. It doesn't look like it in the diagram, but I was worried about that with what StillaThrill said about mounting his dipstick on the port side.
Hummina
1987 Catalina 36 MKI
#741
Bayfield, WI. Usually.
[quote=jhenderson]Yeah, my engine is hanging a couple feet off the floor as we speak. The pan has some holes in it at the thin parts between the bolt holes and a pin hole in the pan itself.. [/quote]
Yeah, wonderful, messy job, ain't it? Believe me, my sincerest condolences!
[quote=jhenderson]
My worry is that the Kubota one has a dipstick mount already. It doesn't look like it in the diagram, but I was worried about that with what StillaThrill said about mounting his dipstick on the port side. [/quote]
Again, as seen in diagram from Kubota, the stock pan wouldn't have a dipstick because there's already one on your block. The oil pan-mounted dipstick seems to be a feature that is unique to the "marinized" version of this engine via Universal.
Take a look at former Mk1 tech editor Steve Frost's write-up of his rebuilding of his M25 ( www.catalina36.org/members/technical/maintenance/m25xp-engine-overhaul ) a few years back -- you can see he used the Kubota pan (which didn't have a dipstick fitting) and simply welded on the old dipstick fitting onto the new pan with a 2-part metal epoxy called Conley weld. (I've never used it, but I assume its similar to J.B. Weld, which has been a useful fix for me for decades...),
I was going to go this route if my pan needed replacement, but was pleasantly surprised when I got the old pan off on our boat (if anything could be pleasant about this type of repair job!) to discover that the pan was actually intact (just a little rust which I sanded off and repainted), and it just needed new gaskets... If you do use the Kubota pan, be mindful that it is deeper, which might somewhat change the amount of oil required (but if the dipstick is located in the same location, its measurements should be fine).
Matthew Chachère
s/v ¡Que Chévere!
(Formerly 1985 C36 MKI #466 tall rig fin keel M25)
2006 Catalina Morgan 440 #30.
Homeported in eastern Long Island, NY
Matthew, when you removed the pan, did you have to haul out the engine for that? How you can do it without touching the rest of the block at all?
Last night I discovered a leak during my oil change. I hope it doesn't come from that, but still started to document myself.
Ludovic François
Hotel Catalina - Catalina 36 Hull #883
Marina Del Rey, CA
[quote=ludo]Matthew, when you removed the pan, did you have to haul out the engine for that? How you can do it without touching the rest of the block at all?
Last night I discovered a leak during my oil change. I hope it doesn't come from that, but still started to document myself.[/quote]
(My sincerest condolences on this discovery) No, I did not have to haul out the engine. See my comment 10 above.
What I did have to do was disconnect the prop shaft from the transmission, disconnect the exhaust header from the hump hose, undo the four engine mount bolts, and then raise the engine up maybe a foot, using a come-along that was slung over a 4x4 laid across the companionway opening and hooked onto the lifting hook on the top of the engine. That provided enough space to reach under the engine and undo the 18 bolts that hold the oil pan to the bottom of the engine block (you'll need some extensions for your socket wrench, and a good 6 point socket - don't want to strip any of these). It took some contortions, but it is do-able without hauling the engine out.
Matthew Chachère
s/v ¡Que Chévere!
(Formerly 1985 C36 MKI #466 tall rig fin keel M25)
2006 Catalina Morgan 440 #30.
Homeported in eastern Long Island, NY
Matthew,
You may want to reach under with your phone camera and get video to see what you are getting yourself into. Several of my oil pan bolts were rusted and rounded, so you will want the right tools before you get to work. I used bolt extractor sockets like these and it made quick work. I had tried the weekend before and they weren't budging.
http://www.amazon.com/IRWIN-BOLT-GRIP-Extractor-Expansion-394002/dp/B000QW6K8I/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1508852004&sr=8-2&keywords=bolt+extractor+socket
Hummina
1987 Catalina 36 MKI
#741
Bayfield, WI. Usually.
[quote=jhenderson]
You may want to reach under with your phone camera and get video to see what you are getting yourself into.
[/quote]
Another sometimes useful tool for this kind of work (and in general for poking around in the dark and un-seeable regions of your boat) is a wand camera, also referred to as a flexible inspection camera or a boroscope. Here's a link for one. www.techinstrument.com/products/dcs300-the-seeker-300-video-inspection-system?variant=336353451&campaignid=225335540&adgroupid=43372812619&creative=197883457192&keyword=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI-_2dmsWJ1wIVyx6GCh2x4wpwEAYYAiABEgIbAPD_BwE I picked one up a few years ago at Costco for maybe $100, thinking it might come in handy at some point... and it has.
Matthew Chachère
s/v ¡Que Chévere!
(Formerly 1985 C36 MKI #466 tall rig fin keel M25)
2006 Catalina Morgan 440 #30.
Homeported in eastern Long Island, NY
$131 for a new pan and gasket from the Kubota link above, $20 and a 30 pack of Hamm's beer to a friend of a friend to weld the dipstick mount on the pan. Pretty happy with the results. Much less than the $660 the sailing diesel websites were offering.
Hummina
1987 Catalina 36 MKI
#741
Bayfield, WI. Usually.
Our turn for this replacement as I was cruising this year and noticed the oil pan had rusted through. Quick fix with JB Weld kept us rolling but now time to fix it in the off season.
1 question on the above conversations -- does it function to use the Kubota pan with bolt 18 out (TOAD MARINE reference diagram above) for the new dip stick location?
Seems like only the length of the stick and markings on the stick would be an issue.
Best,
Mark
1984 C36 Mk1
We owned a C30 with an M25 for many years. Although we did not have an oil leak problem- "common" areas were a rusted oil pan, oil dipstick base, and crankshaft main seal. Also, check your alternator mount as this was a weak point and could lead to cracks and leaks in the engine. There is a beefed up replacement mount available. We had a rusted oil pan (no leak during our ownership) because the back of the engine sat in bilge water. I think the engine is mounted higher in the 36, so that likely would not be an issue.
Paul & Wendy Keyser
"First Light"
Rye NH
2005 C36 MKII #2257
Wing, M35B