Ahoy group, hope you don't mind a technical discussion on alternators!
I'm using the Heart Incharge alternator regulator on my 2002 Mk II with the M35B.
I have the Leece Neville/Prestolite 105A alternator feeding into an isolator that feeds the house bank (four 6-volt golf-cart batteries), and a single group 24 starting battery.
I've been having problems with losing the tach signal at the same time my charging starts pulsating from 0 to 30+ amps, which is usually when the house batteries are almost full.
Thinking it was the regulator, and talking to Balmar, they suggested servicing the alternator! I honestly didn't know that alternators should be serviced. Luckily we have a good auto electric shop nearby.
While that is being serviced I started looking at the wiring to the Incharge regulator and reading their manual. There are four wires going to the regulator, 1. Reg On (brown) 2. +12V In (red) 3. Field (blue) and 4. Ground 12V negative (black).
My wiring takes the +12V from the house battery side of the isolator as suggested, and the Reg On wire comes from the blue/pink wires in the engine bundle that come from ignition switch power and go through the oil pressure switch. Blue goes to the field input on the alternator and ground goes to the 12v negative terminal on the alternator.
This all sounds about right, except the Incharge manual says the Reg On(brown) wire should be connected to the SAME battery that the red +12V battery is connected to. But wired to the ignition power through the oil pressure switch this voltage source is from the starting battery, right?
To change this, I'm going to route a +12V wire from the house bank through a small relay that is energized by the ignition power so that the sensing and power for the regulator both come from the house bank.
I hope that helps with more accurate voltage sensing near the end of charging?
Comments welcome.
Mike
Pleiades
2002 C36 Mk II
Alameda, CA
Mike Ashmore
Pleiades
2002 C36 Mk II #2102
Alameda, CA
Mike, do you think you could find manuals online for the regulator and alternator? If you could post a link to them here it would let us do a little research and perhaps offer more useful suggestions.
Access to the manuals would help me as I am considering a regulator upgrade for my hull #2109 preparatory to my trip up the Inside Passage this coming year (fingers crossed).
Larry Brandt
S/V High Flight #2109
Pacific Northwest, PDX-based
2002 C-36 mkII SR/FK M35B
Hi Larry, I have attached the Heart Incharge regulator manual that I found online. It looks like somebody scanned it years ago. I have this and the original hard copy that I use at the boat.
My alternator is a Prestolite/Leece Neville 105A unit that was added by the PO.
It turned out the alternator needed to be replaced, per my local repair shop.
The most current I've seen is about 50-60A. Which is really just fine since my battery bank is four 6Vgolf carts, and a grp 24 starting battery.
What is your battery/alternator configuration now?
One thing I just found out the hard way is that this alternator should be purchased with the 1" foot. This allows you to line up the pulleys better than if you get the 2" foot.
I don't have any detailed info on the alternator, other than my actual model is 8MR2401UA. The Prestolite/LN website looks to have a lot of info though.
Looks like our boats we built very close to each other. Our boat was originally sold in Vancouver, BC.
A trip up the Inside Passage sounds awesome!
Mike
Mike Ashmore
Pleiades
2002 C36 Mk II #2102
Alameda, CA
Thanks, Mike. I printed out the manual so I can read it at a convenient moment.
My boat is stock from the factory as far as the engine and alternator goes, and I am looking at relatively easy ways to enhance the battery recharge and minimize motor running on anchor.
Larry Brandt
S/V High Flight #2109
Pacific Northwest, PDX-based
2002 C-36 mkII SR/FK M35B
Larry,
what was the stock configuration back then? I think it was a Motorola 51 amp alternator without an external alternator controller, and two 4D batteries for the house bank, and a group 24 for the starter with a separate on/off switch for each bank, and an isolator that is fed by the alternator.
Is this what you have now?
You could upgrade to the same Leece-Neville 105A alternator I have, but you'd have to use a Balmar regulator or something similar.
Mike Ashmore
Pleiades
2002 C36 Mk II #2102
Alameda, CA
Mike, you're probably correct on the stock config. I'll do some research in advance of a possible March 2017 upgrade. Thanks for bringing this concept to the top of my stack.
Larry Brandt
S/V High Flight #2109
Pacific Northwest, PDX-based
2002 C-36 mkII SR/FK M35B
Something you might think about is up grading the pulleys and belt system. I just added the flat belt and pulleys from PKYS . No more belt dust or slippage.
Randy Sherwood
Mutualfun 1990 # 1057
T/R W/K M35a
Home. Charlotte, Mi.
Boat. St Augustine,Fl.
Hi Randy,
Good comment. Makes me think I should change my belt because after replacing the alternator per recommendation from my local shop, I still appear to have this same surging problem. I'm suspecting the old Heart Incharge regulator, but even though the belt looks fine, I guess it could have stretched, as very well might have since it did seem a little easier to get the belt on to the pulleys.
Question: can you get the new belt, pulleys for the water pump and engine and alternator from PKYS? I guess I'll look while awaiting your reply. I also need to see if there is room for the wider belt.
thanks,
Mike
Mike Ashmore
Pleiades
2002 C36 Mk II #2102
Alameda, CA
[quote=PleiadesC36]Hi Randy,
Question: can you get the new belt, pulleys for the water pump and engine and alternator from PKYS? I guess I'll look while awaiting your reply. I also need to see if there is room for the wider belt.
thanks,
Mike[/quote]
The Kit includes belts and pulley adapters for flywheel & water pump, and replacement pulley if necessary for alternator. - you can buy an alternator from them with the correct pulley installed.
Les
Les & Trish Troyer
Mahalo
Everett, WA
1983 C-36 Hull #0094
C-36 MK 1 Technical Editor.
Commodore
Thanks Les, I did see that Balmar has kits for the M35B engine. I may look at doing the upgrade in the future. For now, I reduced the load on the belt with the new Balmar regulator.
Mike
Mike Ashmore
Pleiades
2002 C36 Mk II #2102
Alameda, CA
Hey Mike. I'm curious. How are you measuring 30 amps pulsing from the charging system when the batteries are almost full? How are you measuring almost full?
Nick Caballero
Retired C36/375IA Mk II Technical Editor
This regulator has the ability to use the red wire or the brown wire as sense. If the brown wire is selected as sense and is wired to the start battery, this could be causing your issue. Your smaller start battery is isolated from the larger house battery and if this is being used as sense, the regulator will be regulating based on the state of charge of your starting battery and not your house battery. This will result in your house batteries never fully charged.
Your idea of having the brown wire also connect to the house lug on the isolator, going through a relay that is activated by the ignition switch is sound. Make sure the isolator is is good too. Keep in mind your charger is a bit long-in-the-tooth and modern regulators have amplifiers for tachometers that eliminate the "keep alive" pulses, which can be problematic and might also be coming into play here.
Nick Caballero
Retired C36/375IA Mk II Technical Editor
Hi Nick,
Thanks for your comments. I concur, however, I was careful to make sure I was using the red and brown wires from the house bank. I definitely wanted to sense the house bank voltage. I even moved the battery negative sense all the way to the house negative battery terminal, instead of the alternator negative. I noticed that the existing wiring had the brown wire fed by the ignition circuit which was the starting battery, which I guess was OK, but the red wire voltage sense and power was connected to the house side of the isolator, which I moved to the house B+ terminal, and I also connected the house battery to the brown ignition wire through a relay energized by the starting battery via ignition. Hope you could follow that.
OK, now to the pulsing. I was using the link 2000 meter and shunt to see the voltage and current surging. And this was after doing the above wiring. I could see the red light on the Incharge regulator pulsing along with the current pulsing. I couldn't see what was causing this.
Update.... Today I decided to buy the Balmar MC-614H regulator controller, thinking the Heart unit was defective, AND, with the brand new 105A alternator capable of putting out 80 amps at 2400 RPM, I didn't want to hit my four 6V golf-cart batteries with more than about 50-60A. As you probably know, the Belt Load Manager can be setup to reduce the field potential. I set it at a 56% reduction in field and was getting about 55 amps at 2000 RPM.
OK, that's enough for now. I hope this all makes sense.
cheers,
Mike
Mike Ashmore
Pleiades
2002 C36 Mk II #2102
Alameda, CA
[quote=PleiadesC36]Hi Nick,
Today I decided to buy the Balmar MC-614H regulator controller, thinking the Heart unit was defective, AND, with the brand new 105A alternator capable of putting out 80 amps at 2400 RPM, I didn't want to hit my four 6V golf-cart batteries with more than about 50-60A. As you probably know, the Belt Load Manager can be setup to reduce the field potential. I set it at a 56% reduction in field and was getting about 55 amps at 2000 RPM.
OK, that's enough for now. I hope this all makes sense.
cheers,
Mike[/quote]
Your 105A alternator, even at 100% output, which it won't do for very long, is barely .23C. Most golf cart batteries today can easily be charged at .25C to .3C (25% to 30% of Ah capacity) during bulk. Don't set belt manager for the batteries, set it for the belt and alternator. For a LN 105A I would recommend BM level 3 or 4. Alt temp is what you are watching for and you really should be using both battery and alternator temp sensors..
Do yourself a favor and get rid of the diode isolator. Drop in a Blue Sea ACR, Echo Charger or Duo Charger and wire the MC-614's negative/B- and V-Sense direct to the house bank. Be sure to set your BV to 14.8V for about 18-36 minutes then have it drop to AV at 14.7V for at least a 3-4 hour duration especially if you're doing some deep cycling & PSOC use. Under charging due to low absorption voltage settings or volt sensing issues and under absorbing time wise are two of the biggest contributors to poor charge performance.
-Maine Sail
https://www.marinehowto.com/
MS/RC, thanks very much for your inputs. I did pick up the two temp sensors yesterday and will install soon.
Regarding an echo charger/ACR, my Heart Freedom 10 that came with the boat has an echo charger feature and is wired to the starting battery. It appears to function when the house bank is under charge from my PV array while on the hook.
My question is: do you think this echo charger in the inverter would be sufficient if I removed the isolator?
Thanks for your insights. Cheers,
Mike
Mike Ashmore
Pleiades
2002 C36 Mk II #2102
Alameda, CA
OK. Sounds like you did all you could with the Heart Incharge. The Balmar MC-614H is an excellent regulator. If you want to have reliable tachometer signals, make sure to feed the stator pulses to the regulator and then have the regulator feed your tachometer.
Belt tension on alternators is important as well as belt vendor. Dayco Top Cog are high on the list. My method of determining belt tension is to grab the middle of the longest section of belt between index finger and thumb and try to turn 90 degrees. There should be substantial resistance. New belts ALWAYS need to be tightened after a few hours of operation and finding some belt dust is OK at first, but very light or no dust after the 2nd tightening.
Nick Caballero
Retired C36/375IA Mk II Technical Editor
Nick, good suggestion on the tach wiring. I did lose my tach signal at full SOC times with the Incharge, even with the keep alive circuit enabled. I think the guys at Balmar may have come from Heart, as Balmar is in Arlington where all the Heart and Trace inverter companies came from, and where Outback and Magnum are. (and they used the same Ford connector) I know a bunch of these guys from the solar PV business which I've been in for 30 years!
Do you know how to cross reference the Dayco top cog belts to the Napa belts? I have found the Napa 7395 belt fits best with this alternator. However, I am right at the limit of the curved adjustment bracket. Do you still use the original bracket? A friend had a better bracket built for him.
I did see some belt dust in my initial running. Will tighten again and hope for less dust.
Cheers,
Mike
Mike Ashmore
Pleiades
2002 C36 Mk II #2102
Alameda, CA
The 7395 is a 40" belt. The equivalent Dayco is 15400. We use the stock bracket, but actually went a bit smaller on the belt. Had to loosen the fresh water pump pulley to install in order to have enough adjustment on the bracket. The 400 in the Dayco number is the length and you can get other lengths. We purchased a few different lengths, used the one that was the best, and returned the others, keeping the 40" broken-in belt for emergencies as it would slip on without loosening the water pump pulley. I don't have access to the boat right now so I can't tell you what is installed.
Nick Caballero
Retired C36/375IA Mk II Technical Editor