I'm out shopping for a C36. Today I saw a 2004 model which had a 3 battery configuration that looked quite original. It had alternate house batteries and an engine start battery. I've seen notes and discussions for that as an upgrade, but I didn't know that it had ever come as original equipment.
Was the 3 battery setup a late model standard, or did I just see a nicely done upgrade by a PO?
Thanks,
G. Jackson
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Greg Jackson
SV Jacqui Marie
2004 C36, MKII
tall rig, wing keel,
Welcome SailorJackson, and good luck in your search for a great boat. To my recollection, the "standard" battery set-up, at least on the Mark I (prior to about 1994) were the two batteries under the seat right in front of the chart table. I believe any additional batteries would have been added by the owner. I know that I have the 2 original ones plus another two in the port lazarette that were added by my PO.
Mike
Deja Vu
1991 MK I # 1106
Marina del Rey, CA
G. Jackson, welcome. You don't give any hint of the year C36 you're considering, so it is difficult for us to give a specific answer; however, as Mike stated, the factory standard was a dual battery installation. Depending on the model year, this configuration may have varied; but the dedicated starting battery was almost always an aftermarket add-in.
This upgrade has been much discussed in our C36IA web pages. It isn't too difficult of a task to do, but for safety and reliability it is demanding of quality marine materials (terminals, wire, etc) and quality workmanship. As the boat came from the factory, typically it had two identical batteries that were separately switched as #1 and #2. The upgrade provided for paralleling these two batteries to make one huge house bank (typically named #2), and then installing a smaller dedicated starting battery (typically named #1).
In practice, the operation is dead simple...always leave the battery switch on #2. Period. And if ever the house bank is flat, then switch to #1 to get the engine started. No muss, no fuss.
Larry Brandt
S/V High Flight #2109
Pacific Northwest, PDX-based
2002 C-36 mkII SR/FK M35B
The C36 where I saw that was a 2004 in Warwick, RI. Battery arrangement appeared original equipment becase there were two battery switches and they were integrated into a single engraved panel which said something like House 1, House 2, and Engine.
I like the concept because it seems silly to preserve a monster 4D battery for backup, just to get the motor started. A single group 27 will guarantee the motor to start, why reserve a 4D for that?
I'm currently in a hotel in Groton, CT and in the middle of my Grand C36 Tour. I got into Boston at noon today and heading south. I saw 2 C36 models today (2004 and 2006) in Rhode Island. I'm scheduled to see two more on Friday in Westbrook, CT, then 4 Catalina's on Saturday in New York, and 2 more in Haven de Grace, MD on Monday. I'm probably going to buy one of them.
To be perfectly honest, tthe boat tour is not all C36. One of the boats in New York is a C-387 and one of the Maryland boats is a C34. I'm not sure I'll like the cramped space of the C34, nor the lines of the C-387.
Years ago, when I was sailing small trailerable Catalina's or O'Days, I always had the feeling that a "real boat" was one with a dedicated nav station. To me, that's what sets the C34 and the C36 apart.
G. Jackson
[QUOTE=LCBrandt;7864]G. Jackson, welcome. You don't give any hint of the year C36 you're considering, so it is difficult for us to give a specific answer; however, as Mike stated, the factory standard was a dual battery installation. Depending on the model year, this configuration may have varied; but the dedicated starting battery was almost always an aftermarket add-in.
This upgrade has been much discussed in our C36IA web pages. It isn't too difficult of a task to do, but for safety and reliability it is demanding of quality marine materials (terminals, wire, etc) and quality workmanship. As the boat came from the factory, typically it had two identical batteries that were separately switched as #1 and #2. The upgrade provided for paralleling these two batteries to make one huge house bank (typically named #2), and then installing a smaller dedicated starting battery (typically named #1).
In practice, the operation is dead simple...always leave the battery switch on #2. Period. And if ever the house bank is flat, then switch to #1 to get the engine started. No muss, no fuss.[/QUOTE]
Greg Jackson
SV Jacqui Marie
2004 C36, MKII
tall rig, wing keel,
We looked at 34's first but after seeing a 36 were sold on it. Very little difference in cost and while their specs look very close together on paper the 36 just felt bigger. It has a lot more storage space as well. We could have lived with either, but are happy we got the 36.
As for the batteries, if you see one with the 4Ds replaced by six volt batteries that (IMHO) is a very worthwhile addition. The 4Ds are a bear to work with, very heavy and very limited capacity compared to golf cart batteries. Six volts are easily available anywhere, deep cycle 4Ds can be scarce in some parts of the world (here, for instance). If you're going to be doing any serious amount of cruising, as in on the hook, the 4Ds are not going to cut the mustard.
As for the starting battery, I have a small AGM mounted in the locker at the entrance to the aft cabin dedicated to starting the engine. It is charged by an echo charger since starting batteries normally need very little charging. There is a combiner switch at the engine to combine both house and starting banks if necessary. There is a disconnect at the starter battery as well. This system gives very good redundancy and has been bullet-proof for us in that it is virtually impossible to accidentally discharge all the batteries.
I guess I'm going to answer my own questions here. Today I inspected 2 more late model C36 boats. That's 4 down, 4 more to go in my Grand Boat Tour. Both of the boats today (2004, and 2005) had the exact same 3 battery configuration. Two 4D monsters and a group 27 for battery start.
I remain convinced that this is a really good combination. While a couple of 6V batteries will fractionally increase the capacity over a single 4D, by having a small G27 battery held in reserve, you essentially double your house capacity. As most conservative sailors, I will never dip deeply into the reserve battery that is held for engine start. I like the 3 battery (2 big, 1 little) combo.
Off topic, but probably very much of interest to this community, I found a C350 parked directly next to a C36 on the same floating dock. I chartered a C350 last summer and fell in love with roller furling main but I had a bad feeling for the boat design. The 350 has a lot of room, a lot of beam, but from the wheel I could hardly see over the cabin top. If felt like I was driving a Winnabago. It was just a feeling, but the boat specifications don't really reveal the differences between the boats. It was very clear when I found a C36 and C350 parked next to each other on the same floating dock. The distance between the waterline and the top of the toe rail on the 350 is almost 10" higher. The C350 is a much better boat for drinking cocktails, but the lines look almost looks as bad as every Hunter I see. I have not purchased a boat yet but I've become quite convinced that, for my purposes, a C36 is much better choice than a C350. A lot of people love their Catalina 350, and for good reasons. Never the less, I'm much more a C36 person.
G. Jackson
[QUOTE=bstreet;7867]We looked at 34's first but after seeing a 36 were sold on it. Very little difference in cost and while their specs look very close together on paper the 36 just felt bigger. It has a lot more storage space as well. We could have lived with either, but are happy we got the 36.
As for the batteries, if you see one with the 4Ds replaced by six volt batteries that (IMHO) is a very worthwhile addition. The 4Ds are a bear to work with, very heavy and very limited capacity compared to golf cart batteries. Six volts are easily available anywhere, deep cycle 4Ds can be scarce in some parts of the world (here, for instance). If you're going to be doing any serious amount of cruising, as in on the hook, the 4Ds are not going to cut the mustard.
As for the starting battery, I have a small AGM mounted in the locker at the entrance to the aft cabin dedicated to starting the engine. It is charged by an echo charger since starting batteries normally need very little charging. There is a combiner switch at the engine to combine both house and starting banks if necessary. There is a disconnect at the starter battery as well. This system gives very good redundancy and has been bullet-proof for us in that it is virtually impossible to accidentally discharge all the batteries.[/QUOTE]
Greg Jackson
SV Jacqui Marie
2004 C36, MKII
tall rig, wing keel,
Actually, you can get 4 X 6 volts in the same area the 4Ds take up which increases the amps from 340 to close to 500 depending on whose 6 volts you get, a pretty good increase in capacity. With a 3rd battery dedicated to starting, you retain the ability to have 2 separate house banks so if you lose a cell in one 6 volt battery you still have a functional 12 volt house bank though at half the amps. Plus deep cycle 6 volts are so much more available and don't require Arnold the Terminator to lift out. When the 4Ds die it's worthwhile considering the 6 volts.
Agree totally with your comments re the 350 vs 36.
It makes little sense to split a large house bank into two separate banks. Since with the same daily load you end up drawing down each half twice the amount, the life of the batteries are reduced.
Your boat your choice, but the wiring with two separated 4Ds and a separate reserve bank simply continues the nonsense of sending boats out of a factory with two equal banks and a PO who added a reserve bank and a separate switch for it. Sometimes factories do strange wiring and switching.
For a really GOOD discussion of boat electrical systems, try this one: [url]http://www.sailnet.com/forums/electrical-systems/70350-battery-bank-desi...
It's long, but it covers a lot of ground.
As far as three separate banks of batteries?
Your boat, your choice.:):):)
Stu Jackson, C34IA Secretary, C34 #224, 1986, SR/FK, M25 engine, Rocna 10 (22#)
We always run the house side as one bank but we can split it into two banks IF we happened to lose a cell in a 6 volt battery. It is purely for redundancy.
The 3rd battery is never used for anything but starting, for which it is optimized being an AGM that can put out huge surges of current. However, if we somehow managed to totally lose all the house batteries, which could happen, it can be bridged to the house switch via the combiner and we are up and running again at least in an emergency sense to get to civilization.
I got the layout for this from an article written by some guy name of Calder, it's the 3rd boat I've used it on and it has been very reliable and easy to manage. There's about a million ways to do batteries/charging, ya pays yer money and ya makes yer choice.
[QUOTE=bstreet;7878]Actually, you can get 4 X 6 volts in the same area the 4Ds take up which increases the amps from 340 to close to 500 depending on whose 6 volts you get, a pretty good increase in capacity. With a 3rd battery dedicated to starting, you retain the ability to have 2 separate house banks so if you lose a cell in one 6 volt battery you still have a functional 12 volt house bank though at half the amps. [/QUOTE]
Where do you get a 6 volt with 340 to 500 amp hours? Defender lists a 4D as 205 AH, while the 6 volt has 225 AH. Trojan has similar numbers. Looking at the numbers it seems that switching to 6V seems to be a 10% increase in capacity, 16% increase in weight, and 21% increase in cost.
Greg Jackson
SV Jacqui Marie
2004 C36, MKII
tall rig, wing keel,
We put in 4 US Battery 2200's, at 232 amps = 464 amps total. Their 145XC is rated at 251 amps, total of 502 for 4 of them, their 250hc XC is rated at 283 amps = 566 amps, those last two are 5/8" of an inch higher than the 2200's and it looked dicey if they would fit without having to lift the cushion on the settee a bit so I went with the 2200's. The price of them was better than Trojan and the recommendations I got from people who had them was very good so I went that route.
[URL]http://www.usbattery.com/usb_us2200xc.html[/URL]
[URL]http://www.usbattery.com/usb_us145xc.html[/URL]
[URL]http://www.usbattery.com/usb_us250hcxc.html[/URL]
Bigger issue is that where I am, I could not get any deep cycle 4Ds at all, not one battery shop I talked to carried them. They are used as heavy truck starting batteries and are not deep cycle, max rating is 170 amps, which is why the PO went through a set every 2 years. 6 volts are readily available everywhere and since we plan on traveling that is important.
Cost wise for me it is hard to say. The PO was paying $99 for a 4D based on invoices I found in the boat, I would have had to pay over $250 for the same battery. I paid $150 each for the 6 volts so it's way more than 21% increase over what you might have to pay if you can get a 99 buck battery. But given the projected life span of the 6 volts it may well turn out to be cheaper. I could have got Rolls/Surette 4Ds, 185 amps, as I recall it was at about $900 per battery, it was an eye-watering number, but even they said it would be better to go to 4 6 volts if I could.
Total weight of the batteries is, IMHO, irrelevant in a boat this size, individual battery weight is very important. A single 6 volt is manageable, a 4D is a back breaker, 122 lbs for the 4Ds vs 68 for the 6 volt. I wrestled those things out by myself with the boat on the cradle. That alone is enough reason to go 6 volt. But if you're not a DIY guy individual battery weight is also irrelevant.
All the reading I did, all the advice I got from serious cruising people, many of whom are in this group, said 6 volts are the way to go. But as Stu said, your boat, your money. What works for me may not work at all for you. It's all in how you plan to use your boat.