Steve:
Even the inland lakes connecting lake mi by channels make our head smell. So what we do is to use a 10 oz solo cup and use the water out of the head sink, or just pull out the faucet and spray it into the head. A simple fix.
Randy

Steve, Randy is right. A lot of Great Lakes cruisers use water from the fresh water tank for just this purpose. We use a dedicated cup and store it under the sink. We also use a little bit of a blue coloured crystal type product called "Head Mate". It is not detrimental to the black water system and is a deodorizer that makes the admiral happy. What more can a man want?

Cheers,

Mark

[QUOTE=Pat T;500]Steve,
Before I installed my pressurized fresh water SeaEra electric head I used to do as Randy & Mark do. But now I do have the electric head tapped into the ship's water system. I hooked it up per manufactures directions which is an acceptable practice. So far after 2 years there have been no problems with any contamination, that I could tell. To be fair though, I can't say that I regularly drink from the ship's water system but I do use it to brush my teeth, shower, wash dishes, and cook with (boiled water).
Hate to see you go through the trouble of adding another tank and using up storage space.
Just my opinion though.[/QUOTE]

Hope you have a check valve between the pump and your water tanks!!:D:D:D:D

Steve, never connect your freshwater system to the head. Ever! For a fresh water flush, T into your sink drain. If you want more details, go over to [url]www.catalinaowners.com[/url] and ask Peggie Hall, "The Head Mistress" about this. She's published a book about Boat Odors that is a masterpiece. I have the materials to do just that, but never got around to it. We find a simple flush when we get on board "uses up" the crappy seawater and it's fine for the rest of the weekend from use. Sometimes I pour some freshwater from a cup into the head at the end of the day, but that only takes care of the loop to the bowl and not the short intake line from the thru hull to the head, which is where the critters hang out. We just find it's NOT that big of a problem, although I hear about it over and over again. Pump it out some when you first get on board and it shouldn't be an issue for the rest of the cruise.

Steve, the vent odors come from the holding tank because the vent line is too small. This is the reason I suggested to do some research with Peggie Hall. With a vent line too small, not enough air gets into the holding tank and the critters multiply and smell. That's why your septic tank is OK, because enough air gets into it. And too many people install filters on their vent lines which is the worst thing to do because it blocks air from getting into the tank. Read Peggie's book or ask the questions over there, or do searches on her section. When my "real" computer gets back from the repair shop, I can post some of her material that I've saved about this very subject.

Last winter I replaced the head and added a wye diverter value off the sink drain. The wye value allow the sink to drain overboard or to the head. I also replaced/ cleaned the existing supply lines that fed the head. It was amazing how nasty these 2 year old feed lines which were lined with black stink. The whole project cost under $140 and took 3 hours. It was well worth it as last season the odors from the holding tank and general waste side of the system were basically non existent based on the prior season. The nice feature is you only have to add water to the sink and it flushes the rim, instead of using the old cup method we tried the year before which helped some, but not as effective. It also maintains a air gap to prevent cross contaimination to the pressure water system.

Dragonfly #1522

Steve,

There have been quite a few different trains of thought on your question.
For what its worth, I recently purchased a 2005 model MK11 from Catalina Anchorage MDR (which had originally been fitted out there).
Anyway the boat has had a separate head freshwater flush tank added just aft of the forward freshwater tank behind the 3 drawers. I am not sure of the size but I have attached a photo.
It is an excellent solution to problem as there is virtualy no odour from the head whatsoever. I have put up with the problem in numerous boats but this has fixed it for sure.
The installation is really simple. A Y valve has been added, with the sea water on one side and the fresh water on the other . The outlet simply goes to the head input. So both sources are available and it doesnt compromise your drinking water system.
I am sure Catalina Anchorage would be able to give you all the details.

If all else fails try relocating the head ouside; perhaps in the the cockpit, above the anchor locker or even on a stern perch seat.

Steve, here's that info I promised - got the computer back - was a corrupted Windows system now repaired.

ODOR CONTROLIt really IS possible to have a completely odor-free system!--honest!!!
You have read or heard, over and over again, that the key to odor control is the hose, that hose permeates with sewage and causes the system to stink. That==s folklore. The key to odor control is in the installation of the entire system. What very few people in the marine industry have learned is the very nature of sewage itself and how it breaks down, what creates odor and what prevents odor from forming. Once we understood proven sewage management principles and how to apply them to onboard systems, we were able to install systems that are completely odor-free and correct the ones that weren==t. Once you understand it--and it==s so simple!--you can do the same thing.
There are two ways to deal with holding tank odor: try to reduce it, mask it, and contain it after it==s formed, by using chemicals and filtersCCwhich has never proven very successfulYYor prevent odor from forming in the first place by applying the same principles that are used to balance and maintain sewage treatment ponds. In fact, sewage treatment ponds only stink when they==ve been unbalanced biologically by an overload of chemicals! Here==s how it works:
Sewage contains both aerobic (need oxygen to survive and thrive), and anaerobic bacteria (thrive in an airless environment); neither can function in the other==s environment. Why is that important? Because only the anaerobic bacteria in sewage produce foul-smelling gasses! Aerobic bacteria break sewage down, as does anaerobic bacteria--but aerobic bacteria do not generate odor. So as long as there is a sufficient supply of air to the tank, and an aerobic bacteria treatment is added to aid that which naturally occurs in sewage, the aerobic bacteria thrive and overpower the anaerobic bacteria, and the system remains odor free.

A bio-active (live aerobic bacteria) holding tank treatment such as our own "K.O." works with the aerobic bacteria in sewage, eliminating odor, completely emulsifying solids & paper, and preventing sludge from forming. Enzymes do little if anything--a brief respite from odor immediately after adding them, then odor begins to build again. Chemical products only mask odor with another odor, and they kill not only odor-causing anaerobic bacteria, but beneficial aerobic bacteria as well--not good, because the aerobic bacteria are needed in the system to break down and emulsify solids and paper. Chemicals only break them UP and dissolve them into little tiny particles that settle to the bottom of the tank, along with chemical residue, to become sludge that turns to concrete. Plus, chemicals, unlike bio-active products, are also unwelcome in landside sewage treatment facilities, and are especially unappreciated by those living and working near them!
The bacteria in sewage produce a variety of sulfur monoxides and dioxides (which are the malodorous gasses), methane--which has no odor but is flammable--and carbon dioxide, which also has no odor but creates the environment in which the aerobic bacteria cannot live, but the anaerobic bacteria thrive. Carbon dioxide does not rise or fall, it is ambient--like the atmosphere. Without a sufficient flow of fresh air through the tank to allow it to dissipate, it simply lies like a blanket on top of any pool of sewage (whether inside hose or a holding tank) and builds, suffocating the aerobic bacteria and creating the perfect environment for the anaerobic bacteria to take over. The system literally "turns septic," and the result: a stinking boatYYor at least foul gasses out the vent line every time the head is flushed.
To prevent this, let==s start with the head: the discharge hose, no matter whether it goes overboard, to a Type I or II MSD, or to a holding tank, should be installed, if at all possible, with no sags or low places where sewage can stand. When a marine head is not flushed sufficiently to clear the hose of sewage and rinse the hose behind the sewage, that sewage sits in low spots in the hose or bits of it cling to the walls of the hoseCCgetting no air, allowing the anaerobic bacteria to thrive and produce their stinking gasses. If sewage stands in a low spot which gets no air in hose which is susceptible to a high rate of water absorption, it will permeate the hose. This is what has given rise to the myth that the "wrong" hose causes odor. Therefore, as I==ve already said, flush your head thoroughly enough to clear the entire hose of sewage and rinse behind it. And when you leave your boat to go home, flush the head thoroughly one last time, this time with fresh water. Until holding tanks came along, the hose was the source of most odor, but incomplete flushing was the real cause.
In the holding tank, the key to odor control is the vent line; it must allow a free exchange of fresh air for the carbon dioxide generated by the sewage. Therefore, those bladder tanks which have no vent are all but guaranteed to stink; there==s no source of air into them at all. Boat builders, boat owners and boat yard personnel who install holding tanks have always viewed the vent line only as a source of enough air to allow the tank to be pumped out without collapsing and as an exhaust for methane (Many even believe methane--which in fact is odorless--to be the source of odor.) Some take the attitude that tanks are going to stink so the thing to do is run that vent line as far from people areasCCcockpits, sun decks, etc.CCas possible, or make the line as small as possible, or install a filter in it. All of the above actually create the very problem you want to solve.
Think of the holding tank as a stuffy room which needs to be aired. You know that even if there isn==t a hint of a breeze outside, just opening a window will allow the fresh air outside to exchange with stuffy air in the room. Open another window for cross-ventilation, and the air exchanges even faster. However, just opening a skylight accomplishes nothing unless there==s also a mechanical means (an "attic fan") of pulling the air up and out--and that won==t work unless another window is open to create airflow. But the only "window" into a holding tank is at the end of a "hallway"--the vent line. If that "hallway" is too narrow and goes around corners, takes a long and curved path, or rises more than 45 degrees above horizontal, no ambient air can find its way to the tank to dissipate and exchange itself with the gasses in it.

Vent the tank with as short, as straight, and as horizontal a line as is possible, with no sags, no arches, and no bends. The minimum I.D of the hose (which is the "standard" size in use today, but for no reason other than being "standard" in fresh water and fuel tanks) is 5/8"; we recommend that it be at least ::". Ideally, it should be no more than 3== long. If it has to be substantially longer, or if running the vent line uphill more than 45 degrees off horizontal can==t be avoided, or if it==s impossible to run a vent line that does not go around a corner, increase the size of the vent line to 1" or even larger. If, for instance on a sailboat, the line must go up to the deck, install a second vent line in order to create cross ventilation, or install some mechanical means of forcing air through the tank. We prefer to put holding tanks in the bow of sailboats--under the v-berth--because the hull just behind the point of the bow is the only place on the hull except the transom that will never be under water even when the boat is at maximum heel; it==s the perfect place to install vent-line through-hulls, because the though-hull is always into the wind, forcing air into the vent line, when the boat is underway or on an anchor or mooring. The vent through-hull should not be the same type as a fuel vent through-hull (a cap with a slit in it), but should be a should be a straight open type through-hull.
On sailboats especially it==s advisable to vent off the top of the tank and not the side, because heeling can cause the contents of a half-full or more tank to run into the vent line. Because a filter blocks the flow of air into the tank, install a vent line filter only as a last resort; the filter does trap the gasses which try to escape through the vent line, but a filter will not stop gasses from forming, and therefore from going back up the inlet hose into the boat or up the outlet hoseCCand eventually permeating even the best hose.
Check the vent line regularly for blockages; little insects love to build nests in them. And remember--the vent line is not an "overflow!" So try never to overfill the tank; bits of sewage can clog the vent line. Enough air can pass through it to allow the tank to be pumped and gasses to escape, but that doesn==t mean the line is completely clear of any blockage.
Finally, the system, including the tank, should be at least nominally rinsed, through the head or back down the deck fillCCwith fresh or salt waterCCafter each pump-out, and occasionally with fresh water. (If your marina doesn==t have a dock water hose for this purpose, please ask them to install one. It should be separate from the potable water hose, and the two hoses should never be interchanged.)

We promise: if you install and maintain your system according to what I==ve said here, you will have NO odor! In fact, you can be standing next to the vent line through-hull when the head is flushed --and you won==t even notice it!

Stu:

This is a brilliant explanation of this issue. Thanks a lot. It does lead to a question, though: On the C36 (MK II), the holding tank is vented by about four feet of hose to the bottom of one of the stanchions, which has a hole in it several inches above the deck. From your explanation, it seems to me that this would not be sufficient to allow a regular flow of air. What alternatives do you suggest? Could the outlet for the vent hose be "y-ed" to accommodate another hose? In that case, where would this hose run to? Another through-hull? (I'm reluctant to make yet another through hull.)

Also, how much oxygen is needed in the holding tank? If the pump out for the holding tank were loosened or removed for a half hour or so once a week, would this provide enough air flow to maintain enough oxygen to permit the aerobic bacteria to thrive?

The pump out is on the bottom of the tank, so forget about it.

The trick is to replace the existing 5/8 inch top vent connection on the tank and run a larger connection and hose to the deck. The vented stanchion holes are even smaller than the small hose, right? I've discussed this with Peggie over the years and the best solution, not employed yet BTW, is a simple vent cap over a thru hull right at the deck. The thru hull is big enough for the air to get in, the plastic spongy deck vent, just like the vents for your blower intake and output, covers it and the sloping deck drains the water around the thru hull. An alternate would be to put a new vent thru hull through the highest portion of the hull. Pretty simple.

Something I have wondered about is using the same style of vent that is the same as your water tank vents. These are usually just under the toe rail a couple of inches. Instead of the stanchion vent. What are the thoughts on this style? Stu, Is this what your referring to. I just checked out the west marine catalog for a picture. [url]http://images.westmarine.com/full/perko561_f.jpg[/url]
Randy

Randy, NO that's not it. They're too small and have a screen in them. This is what I meant, make 'em in plastic, too: [url]http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/producte/10001/-1/10... Put that on top of the thru hull through the deck.

The regular thru hull if you go through the hull is this: [url]http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/producte/10001/-1/10...

Okay, Stu, so just leaving the pump-out cap open for a time wouldn't work because the hose goes to the bottom of the tank. How about this idea:

Attach the hose of a shop-vac to the side of the vacuum which expels the air and somehow seal that to the pump-out and force air down into it. (Better be sure you've connected the hose to the right side of the vacuum!)

My theory is that this would aeriate the sludge in the holding tank while at the same time provide oxygen to the air in the tank. What do you think of this? If it were done weekly, would this keep the odor away?

John,

I don't think so, because it's sitting there all week dong its thing. All your idea would do is stir it up some, and NOT deal with the REAL issue which is the lack of a proper vent. At best it would be a simple stop gap for a short time, and then all week long it'd be bubbling along with the bad bugs.

If you do do it, then ya better make damn sure the vent is clear or you'd be pressurizing your holding tank, and...

The trick is to DO IT RIGHT as The Source tells us from her research and her book.

Here's some more from her article. Notice, it is a "commercial" about the products she used to sell independently, and then sold to Raritan. The prices are well over five years old.

If you keep your existing vent, then KO is for you and is the only thing I've heard of that will solve the odor issue without changing and correcting the poor OEM vent.

I've thought about doing your idea, but find it's much easier to pump out the holding tank and rinse it out on a regular basis. We go offshore so often that it's not an issue for us. The pumpout station at Grand Marina comes and goes. I occasionally check the holding tank by removing the vent line and fitting from the tank and it's very clean in there.

Follow Peggie's advice, that's why she wrote a whole book about it! :);):eek:

******************************************
******************************************

And now for a brief commercial
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K.O. Kills Odor! In marine and RV holding tanks
K.O. IS NOT A CHEMICAL PRODUCT. Unlike chemical products which only mask odor, K.O. utilizes live odor-killing bacteria which digest liquid and solid waste and paper, totally emulsifying them so there's no need to add "tissue digesters" or other "boosters" to your system. The bacteria in K.O. actually neutralize the odor-causing elements in waste, effectively converting the contents of your holding tank to an odor-free product.
K.O. IS MORE EFFECTIVE THAN ANY CHEMICAL OR ENZYME PRODUCT. Chemicals only mask odor temporarily. Although they kill odor-causing bacteria, chemicals also kill other bacteria that suppress odor. Chemicals can actually cause the odor problems you==re trying to solve! Enzymes stimulate the breakdown of waste already in the tank, but are not effective against odor, and can do nothing to new waste as it's added. The live bacteria in K.O. continually multiply, strengthening and aiding the odor-eliminating bacteria, and breaking down the waste (they're even more aggressive in hot weather when chemicals are the weakest). 4 oz. per 25 gallon tank capacity is all you need, and there's seldom any need to add K.O. between pump-outs or need to pump out until the tank is full (even if you==re away from your boat for a while), making K.O. less expensive to use than lower-priced products. And--unlike chemicals--the discharge from tanks treated with K.O. is welcome in on-shore sewer & septic tank systems.
K.O. CANNOT BE COMBINED WITH ANY OTHER HOLDING TANK TREATMENT. Chemicals work by killing bacteria--including the bacteria in K.O. Because we don't know what every product contains, we take no chances.
K.O. IS SAFE FOR USE IN ANY SYSTEM.

K.O. eliminates any organically caused odor. Use it to treat pet accident sites, musty cushions and lockers, etc. Will not harm any colorfast fabric. (Not a stain remover.)
C.P. Cleans Potties!
C.P. IS THE ONLY BOWL CLEANER THAT CAN BE COMBINED WITH K.O. Other toilet bowl cleaners use chemicals. Because C.P. is a bioactive cleaner that uses no chemicals, it won't kill the bacteria in K.O.
C.P. IS LIKE NO OTHER TOILET BOWL CLEANER. It's the first bowl cleaner to combine a specialized strain of bacteria with biodegradable cleaning agents specifically designed to make the bowl shine like never before and the entire system odor-free, while maintaining the bioactive environment essential to odor control in your holding tank.
C.P. DESTROYS ODORS ON CONTACT AS IT CLEANS. Just squirt a little under the rim; stains, soil, and odor --even the worst raw water odors from the intake line--just disappear, usually without even mopping or brushing. C.P. eliminates the need to use bleach and other toxic chemicals to sanitize your head. That's important, whether your hold your waste or discharge it overboard.
B.C Cleans Bilges! (It's highly rated by Practical Sailor and Powerboat Reports)
B.C. LEAVES YOUR BILGE AS CLEAN AND AS CLEAN-SMELLING AS WHEN YOUR BOAT WAS NEW. There==s more than oil and grease in a dirty bilge dirt, sea micro-organisms, molds, fungusYYB.C. not only emulsifies oil, grease, dirt and sludge better than any competing bilge cleaner, its detergents clean your bilge better than any household, commercial or industrial cleaner, removing the sour odors that can permeate your boat AND their sources.. Since B.C. has no odor of its own, all you smell is "clean."
B.C. CLEANS ENGINES TOO! The dirtiest engines and engine parts come clean as new with just a spray and a wipe or a few minute's soak in B.C. & water.
B.C. is 95% biodegradable, and unlike some bilge cleaners, is safe to use on any colorfast surface or material. It won't harm gelcoat, fiberglass, wood, varnish, aluminum, vinyl, plastic, steel, and most paints.

PRICE: 22-oz. $8.95 1-gallon $19.95
C.U. Cleans Up! (Everything!)And it does it so well that Practical Sailor and Powerboat Reports rated it #1 over 26 competing products!)
C.U. CLEANS UP EVERYTHING--EVEN BIRD & SPIDER DROPPINGS! Dirt, grime, exhaust stains, that impossible black streak at the water line, and yes--even spider droppings!--on decks, hulls, canvas, sails, upholstery, deck furniture--even fenders & power cords--come shining clean with a minimum of effort. Unlike other cleaners, C.U. will not harden vinyl.

C.U. REMOVES MILDEW, We won't promise it will take all the stain out of every fabric, but C.U. will remove more mildew stain than anything except bleach, and it will completely remove mildew from all non-fabric surfaces--and C.U., unlike cleaners which contain phosphates, retards its return.
Yet C.U. is 95% biodegradable, and safe to use on any colorfast surface or material--including varnish, most paints, fabrics, and aluminum.
(Although we guarantee C.U. will outperform any other cleaner on the market, no product will completely remove every stain from any material.)

Copyright 1997 by The Hall Group, Inc. All rights reserved. The material contained herein may be reproduced in whole or in part, provided it is without alteration in newsletters and similar not-for-profit publications.

First edition 1994 First revision August, 1995 Second Revision June 1997Updated 02/09/00

REPRINTS OF THIS BOOKLET ARE AVAILABLE IN QUANTITY

When I purchased Hilbre in Kemah TX it was already fitted with valves and restrictors tied into the fresh water system. However and whatever they used to plumb this bit of magic has never caused me any fresh water problems in over three years. As I was on Lake Mead (fresh water), I did consider connecting the second line which is tied into the usual through hull for the head but never did.
Now I am moving to Long Beach I will continue to use the current setup. Both the fresh water line and the through hull line have the same restrictors/connectors so either can be plugged into the valve leading to the head.The feed is before the water pump. I know the setup is not isolated to one fresh water tank as I use only one tank at a time.
So there is a way to do it successfully, I just don't know how. I did have the water tested twice since owning Hilbre because I was naturally concerned however there was never any contamination. Next time I am on the boat, I will take a closer look and see if I can identify the hardware that was used by name and make. It is pretty heavy duty stuff.
John Meyer
Hilbre 2135

Steve, I'm glad it's working for you. My hesitations are twofold: one, the separation of church and state, and two, the limits of freshwater. Using down your freshwater, what happens when you run out? The moldy oldies that grow are only in the intake lines from the seawater intake to the head and the head pump back to the head, so a T connection to the sink drain is an easy way to go, and cleans out both hoses. On [I]Aquavite[/I], we pump a few times as we're motoring out, dismiss the whiff and just move on... Your boat, your choice.

Steve, glad to help, but rethink the check valve. Try this: [url]http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=105546&referrerid=...

Also see reply #36 on page two of this link, Ken Juul, our Past Commodore, included his idea, which may be applicable to you.

The "stink" is from seawater sitting in the hoses during the time you don't use the boat. Once you start using the head, even with the seawater, as long as it keeps movin', it won't stink. The last flush of the day with fresh water through the sink [drain system, not just using the sink faucet hose which misses the rw intake to the pump] should cure the stink problem for the following weekend, and you don't need to use up all, or any in the cruise mode, of your freshwater.

Steve, I recognize that odors do accumulate from sea water itself, and can in a holding tank. As Peggie so often notes, so many people think their "stink" is from their holding tanks (inside the boat) where it's really coming from dirty bilge water which is usually sea water from packing glands and other assorted leaks. I do not dispute that holding tank odors could, just could, be exacerbated by sea water sitting and starting to smell.

However, I wonder about our brethren who sail in fresh water. They, too, get holding tank odors from our woefully inadequate vent lines and the restrictive stanchion opening. Holding tank odors can be more easily resolved with the use of an adequate (i.e., larger) vent, as Peggie has written about. I would say this would be true regardless of sea or fresh water.

I submit that perhaps the odors are much, much more from the decomposition, or lack thereof, of the bodily wastes with our inadequate venting, than it is from the salt water, although there may be a slight improvement from fresh water flushing.

I think your solution has the best of both worlds, and anything that gives you a choice and a backup should work just fine.

If I was doing this, I'd first do what Ken Juul did, which is really simple. Operationally, I wouldn't waste fresh water (hey, we got a drought goin' on, too!) and would only use the fresh water as the last one of the day or weekend before lockin' her up until the next weekend.

Better yet, I'd stay on board and keep sailing, in which case sea water works just fine! :cool:

We have now dealt with empirical, exacerbate, epiphany and, we hope, can now move right on to ecstasy!

U wrote: [I]"I can put a check valve at the tee so waste water will run out to the seacock but not to the head if the sink seacock is open."[/I] If the head is not pumping, no water will be going to that branch of the T, so I don't see the need for a check valve.

Keep me posted on what you've done and how it works.

I hope to see you out there, just gettin' back on board after my skiing/leg interruption, going to Berkeley by boat tomorrow. Yea! You and John and I ought to plan a weekend at Clipper Cove sometime.

Head was stinky when purchased. Just replaced factory head-to-holding tank 1-1/2" and intake 3/4" hoses with Trident sanitation hose. Holding tank vent still pending. Converted to fresh-water flush via tee to sink. Head smells 99% gone. With sea cock closed, put water in sink and flush. Great for dockside where water is plentiful and so is holding tank pump-out. At sea, sea cock open so sink drains to sea and head intake from sea.