PRM120 Transmission Conversion from ZF/Hurth

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LCBrandt
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PRM120 Transmission Conversion from ZF/Hurth

Background: Returning from Alaska, High Flight had its SECOND Hurth transmission failure of the trip. Safe in a slip here in Prince Rupert, BC, I have decided to not proceed further south until completion of the following actions to confirm the integrity of the entire drive train:

  • Remove the ZF/Hurth tranny
  • Install 4 ea new engine mounts 1 " forward of present locations to accommodate most of the 1 1/2" additional length of the PRM120
  • Remount engine
  • Install new damper plate
  • Install new PRM120 transmission
  • Machine shop to modify exhaust arm (exhaust manifold to water muffler)
  • Reattach shift cable to port side of PRM120
  • Realign transmission to prop shaft
  • Test run and local shakedown cruise
  • Change ATF fluid after initial 20 hours break-in
  • Haul boat (in Campbell River) to re-pitch prop, and to...
  • Check and replace cutlass bearing if necessary

We can discuss technical details in this thread, but be patient due to sometimes spotty wi-fi. I am planning to do 99% of the work here in the slip by myself. I am photographing and making notes, hoping to write this up for the C36IA archive when winter comes. The place to follow the non-technical aspects of the voyage is on the boat's Facebook page. Search on Facebook for 'SVHighFlight' or for 'High Flight Inside Passage'.
 

Larry Brandt
S/V High Flight #2109
Pacific Northwest, PDX-based
2002 C-36 mkII SR/FK M35B
 

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Larry-
That is one big project! Looking forward to seeing it documented. Best of luck!

Were both Hurth failures the same? What happened?

Paul & Wendy Keyser
"First Light"
Rye NH
2005 C36 MKII #2257
Wing, M35B

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For details on the Hurth failure see my (alas, lengthy) post of today's date on the C36IA Cruising form. I describe the symptoms in that post.

Larry Brandt
S/V High Flight #2109
Pacific Northwest, PDX-based
2002 C-36 mkII SR/FK M35B
 

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LCBrandt
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I received the new PRM120 this morning and immediately celebrated at Tim Hortons, the essence of what is Canadian.

It's striking how much beefier the PRM120 is. The M35B's 35 hp 36 will be demanding a considerable less percentage of load from the PRM, compared to the demand on the lightly built Hurth,

The first 'unknown unknown' I discovered is that the PRM120's output hub in NOT notched. There's so little room to slide the prop shaft aft on a Catalina 36 Mk II that the cutaway of the hub is crucial to removing and reinstalling the transmission if ever maintenance is needed...even the small Hurth. Without the notch in the hub, I will need to install the transmission on the bell housing and put them in place as a complete unit - not an optimum solution. Tomorrow first thing, I will take the PRM120 to the local machine shop to see of they can machine a notch into the hub while retaining the balance of this rotating component. Unlike the Hurth's hub, it appears that the PRM hub can be readily removed. 

Larry Brandt
S/V High Flight #2109
Pacific Northwest, PDX-based
2002 C-36 mkII SR/FK M35B
 

William Miller
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On the 25xp with the hurth 50 the tranny is bolted to the bell housing from the inside so I had to mount to bell housing and then to engine, Hve fun

Bill Miller
S/V Lorraine
Pacific Northwest,Sound Sound
Grapeview,Wa
1990 Mk1

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Larry-

Sorry for maybe a dumb question, but would there be room with a conventional stuffing box, to mount the new transmission without moving the engine forward? Does the propshaft flange push into the stuffing box with just 1 1/2" of movement?

Paul & Wendy Keyser
"First Light"
Rye NH
2005 C36 MKII #2257
Wing, M35B

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Paul, there is NOT enough room to move the prop shaft back that far. That's why I had to move the engine forward 1".

Larry Brandt
S/V High Flight #2109
Pacific Northwest, PDX-based
2002 C-36 mkII SR/FK M35B
 

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Larry-
I took a look at mine- I have about 1 1/2 inches between the suffing box nut and shaft flange- which would not make for enough room to ever change the packing. Then I was looking at the shaft log hose. Maybe that could be trimmed back an inch or so? Still a tight fit though. The curse of the Hurth.  Too bad the muffler couldn't easily be moved forward to make life simpler.

Again, thanks for documenting for those of us that follow at some point.

Paul;

 

Paul & Wendy Keyser
"First Light"
Rye NH
2005 C36 MKII #2257
Wing, M35B

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Got an elegant fix for the exhaust riser; no need to move the muffler.

Unless someone needs the writeup soon, I'd like to wait a month or two to write an article for the Technical Upgrades library. I am absolutely whacked (!), and I MUST be making miles to the south. I have about a thousand miles to go to get back to PDX. This was a helluva job to be done in a remote location, in the slip, all by myself except for a wonderfully creative machine shop a block away.

The boat's ready to go, and I'm planning to depart Prince Rupert tomorrow about 0630.
 

Larry Brandt
S/V High Flight #2109
Pacific Northwest, PDX-based
2002 C-36 mkII SR/FK M35B
 

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Update: 9/18/17 Comox, BC. 

Almost 400 nmi on the new PRM120 and it's working well. I hauled in Campbell River for a re-pitch of the prop, from a 10" to an 11.4", needed because the ratios are different. The Hurth is 1:1.79, and the PRM is 1:2.00. 

I found my bottom paint was fine (Pettit Trinidad SR hard), the zincs were fine, and there was a hairline crack and tiny, tiny movement when I pressed on the shaft strut. I was going to inject epoxy into the strut area, but the crack was so small it was impossible t do so. I'll address that in the future, if necessary.

Larry Brandt
S/V High Flight #2109
Pacific Northwest, PDX-based
2002 C-36 mkII SR/FK M35B
 

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Hi Larry, Looking forward to all the details, I would like to change my Hurth transmission to the PRM120, too. 

Bob & Maggie B. Hobby Time 1999 C36 MK II TM/Wing Hull #1796 Warwick, RI

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There are tradeoffs.

I'm still digesting the new installation, and I have another 400 miles to get home to 'absorb' the reality of it. But my brain is so fatigued from this lengthy (mostly solo) trip that it will be some time before I can write it up. If anyone is considering this step short term (instead of in 2018) they should call me or PM me for a personal assessment.
 

Larry Brandt
S/V High Flight #2109
Pacific Northwest, PDX-based
2002 C-36 mkII SR/FK M35B
 

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I am now home in PDX, and have almost a thousand miles on the new transmission. There are many things I like about the exchange from Hurth to the PRM, and I will address them when I have time. But for the moment I am cautioning other C-36 owners to call me to discuss if they are considering this transmission changeout. 

I'm not yet completely happy with my installlation.

There is a noticeable engine vibration that is of higher amplitude than the original installation. It's especially noticeable at idle, but tends to get subdued as the RPM gets beyond 2,000. I have deduced that the vibration is the result of moving the engine forward by 1 inch. There is insufficient engine bed to accept the most forward mount lag screw. The new location of the forward engine mounts necessitated that a new method of attachment of that mount's forward lag screw be fabricated. I designed a 3" x 8", 1/2" thick steel plate that utilizes the existing mount holes and adds a couple more lag screw points aft of the forward mount, that accomodates the forward attachment with a bolt into a threaded hole that 'cantilevers' beyond the existing engine bed.

 

Larry Brandt
S/V High Flight #2109
Pacific Northwest, PDX-based
2002 C-36 mkII SR/FK M35B
 

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(This UPDATE is a copy of my repsonse to Bill Miller's PRM thread for the Mk I series boats.)

This summer, after two Hurth failures, I replaced my Mk II's transmission with a PRM 120. The 120 is 1-1/2" longer than the Hurth HBW 100, requiring me to rebed the engine 1" forward of the stock location. It's a fine performing tranmission, but I am not completely satisfied with this mod; plus I still have a lot of woodwork to accomplish to replace the temporary 2x4 spacer I installed that moved the engine cover and companionway steps forward by 1". Bill's research opened my eyes to another possibile transmission that seems to make for a 'more elegant' installation on the Mk II.

Mk II owners can 'stay tuned' for more details. Once the warm weather returns to PDX I will attack my project again. Thanks to Bill Miller, I'm now considering a PRM 80 or PRM 90 as a potential 'right' transmission for my boat.  

Larry Brandt
S/V High Flight #2109
Pacific Northwest, PDX-based
2002 C-36 mkII SR/FK M35B
 

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UPDATE: Today I ordered a brand new PRM 90.

This is the transmission that I SHOULD have ordered when I had my second Hurth failure of my Inside Passage trip this past summer. However, I was unaware of its existance at the time, and the PRM 120 was immediately available in Canada.

With the smaller PRM 90 I can move the engine back to its stock location, and I will avoid having to modify the engine cover and companionway steps. Once the weather warms up here in PDX, I will get on this project and write it up for the Technical Upgrades Library. 

Larry Brandt
S/V High Flight #2109
Pacific Northwest, PDX-based
2002 C-36 mkII SR/FK M35B
 

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Larry that will be a very interesting posting. I'm sure many will look forward to it. Good luck.

Paul & Wendy Keyser
"First Light"
Rye NH
2005 C36 MKII #2257
Wing, M35B

BHamster
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Posts: 19

Hi Larry,
I've read your posts about transmission issues / upgrades with great interest. I recently purchased a 1995 c36 MkII. The pre-purchase survey warned me that the Hurth 100 was questionable, so we adjusted the price a bit and completed the sale. Now, after just a few trips I have confirmed that the Hurth is toast. Rather than rebuild, I'm thinking of upgrading to either a ZF12 or the PRM 90. I've been looking for an update on your experience with the PRM 90, but I haven't seen one on the boards. Did I miss it? Can you share your experience to date? Thank you 

Steve Bogert / Bonnie Sprague
"Wild Spirit"
1995 Catalina 36 Mk II, Tall Rig, Fin Keel, Hull #1412
Bellingham, WA

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