Had lots of high pitch whine at 1500 rpm and above. Recently changed oil, sort of dark, and recent slippage and some "clunks" shifting. Yard mechanic thinks it may be shot. Repair or replace? adjusted the linkage and seems to work better but don't want to end up being towed in by BOAT US. 800 hours on 2001 36 Mk II. Any comments on repair vs replace and any idea of costs?
At this point, I'm thinking a future mainsheet article will be on transmissions......
If your shift lever is properly adjusted and you're still getting slipping, noises, and dark oil, then it's likely that your transmission is near the end of it's life. If you do the remove and install yourself, expect to pay $900 to $1200 for just the shop labor and parts. Would avoid getting a rebuilt one on ebay. A new transmission comes in just slightly more, but success here requires a careful study of forum postings.
Nick Caballero
Retired C36/375IA Mk II Technical Editor
Nick-
Thanks for your transmission article in the latest Mainsheet.
My transmission has about 850 hours. No real issues (I replaced the damper plate this winter hoping that it would quiet the transmission when in neutral- but found the OEM damper was already the polymer design, so I achieved no reduction in noise.)
I will definately check the transmisson lever range of motion and compare it to the specification. At the pedestal lever on our boat, it feels like I have two detants for neutral. On the "1st detent", the shift lever is in a verticle postion. On the "2nd detent", the pedestal shift lever is about 5% forward, but the transmission is still not engaged. However, when lever is moved foward from there, the transmission engages. When shifting from the verticle "1st detent" neutral position to reverse- the transmission immediately engages. To your knowledge there is only one detent for neutral? If so, I suspect the "2nd detent" is partially engaging the clutches and I don't get solid engagement until I'm more than 5% forward on the pedestal shift lever?
Paul & Wendy Keyser
"First Light"
Rye NH
2005 C36 MKII #2257
Wing, M35B
[quote=pkeyser]Nick-
At the pedestal lever on our boat, it feels like I have two detants for neutral. On the "1st detent", the shift lever is in a verticle postion. On the "2nd detent", the pedestal shift lever is about 5% forward, but the transmission is still not engaged. However, when lever is moved foward from there, the transmission engages. When shifting from the verticle "1st detent" neutral position to reverse- the transmission immediately engages. To your knowledge there is only one detent for neutral? If so, I suspect the "2nd detent" is partially engaging the clutches and I don't get solid engagement until I'm more than 5% forward on the pedestal shift lever?[/quote]
Sorry for the late response. On my transmission, I only feel one detent for neutral. You might try disconnecting your cable from the shift lever on the transmission and then moving the shift directly on the transmission to see if you still feel the two detents when near vertical. This is an effort to decide if the 2nd detent is something in the shift cable vs. something internal to the gear box. But that being said, I would not worry too much as long as you're getting the specified amount of transmission lever travel.
Nick Caballero
Retired C36/375IA Mk II Technical Editor
Nick,
In July the transmission failed on my 1991 Catalina 36 Hull #1440 ( about 2,800 hours). The failed transmission was a Hurth HBW-100. The engine is a Universal M 35. The boatyard replaced it with a ZF - 10 unit (A=2.05 B= 1.86). Then I received the excellent article you wrote in Fall Mainsheet. I noticed your article suggests A=1.792 B=1.864, and the specifications state that there is an increase in hp for the model you suggested. Although the engine/transmission sounds smoother, my boat does not seem to go as fast as before the breakdown. Is there a simple solution short of replacing the transmission? Would a transmission cooler affect the performance/hp.
Thanks,
Dave Mariano
[quote=Dave Mariano]Nick,
In July the transmission failed on my 1991 Catalina 36 Hull #1440 ( about 2,800 hours). The failed transmission was a Hurth HBW-100. The engine is a Universal M 35. The boatyard replaced it with a ZF - 10 unit (A=2.05 B= 1.86). Then I received the excellent article you wrote in Fall Mainsheet. I noticed your article suggests A=1.792 B=1.864, and the specifications state that there is an increase in hp for the model you suggested. Although the engine/transmission sounds smoother, my boat does not seem to go as fast as before the breakdown. Is there a simple solution short of replacing the transmission? Would a transmission cooler affect the performance/hp.
Thanks,
Dave Mariano[/quote]
In forward gear, the HBW-100 is a 1.792:1 ratio meaning that for every 1.792 engine revolutions the propeller turns one revolution. Thus at 2400 engine RPM, the propeller is turning 1339 RPM.
The ZF offers the same ratio, but since a 2:05:1 ratio is installed, this means that the same 2400 engine RPM will turn the propeller 1171 RPM, which means less propulsive force. The only way to achieve the same propulsive force would be to turn the propeller at the same 1339 RPM, which now means 2745 engine RPM.
The HP specifications for a transmission are about max input power at a given RPM, not really about how much HP they develop as this is really the job of the engine. What does vary is max allowable HP input for a given gear set. The allowable max HP for the 1.792:1 set is different than the 2.05:1 set because of the differences in torque applied to the internal components at those ratios.
Transmission coolers are designed to keep fluid temperatures within specifications where there is risk of going outside of specifications. In your case, with the 2.05 ratio and running the M35 at 2745 RMP you're very close to the max input HP specification, so a transmission cooler is worthy of some consideration. Adding a transmission cooler will not do anything to moderate your current propulsive force, but might prevent an issue in the future.
Nick Caballero
Retired C36/375IA Mk II Technical Editor
Dave,
I had a similar problem on my 1991 c36 hull 1122. The transmission was also replaced with a new ZF10 with ratios A2.05 B1.86. Eureka II has a variprop feather propeller. SPW, manufacture of the propeller suggests to change the propeller pitch, what is a straight forward procedure on the variprop.
Eureka is running under engine smoother than before and at the same speed. Usually at 200/2100 rpm on calm waters 6,2 kt.
Depending on the diameter and pitch of your propeller, when changing transmission ratios, you might have to modified at least pitch.
You can check with any propeller manufactur what they will suggest with your new gearbox.
Best regards,
Eladio Vallina
C-36 TR EUREKA II
Hull 1122 (1991)
Home port Barcelona (Spain).
This past winter while coming back from the Bahama's. A SSB net that I particape in a boat was having transmission trouble. Mainly slipping. One of the listener's responded in a long discussion over a few days to remove all the fluid and replace with 1/3 diesel fuel and the rest with transmission fluid. The listener that recommended this did the same with there transmission years ago and is still using the same transmission. So many of us followed the outcome of the boat having transmission trouble and he reported back that after doing this all was well and continued in the Bahama's cruising. So that is one I will keep in the back of my head for future knowledge.
Randy Sherwood
Mutualfun 1990 # 1057
T/R W/K M35a
Home. Charlotte, Mi.
Boat. St Augustine,Fl.
Has any one used Redline D4 atf and did you like it .Read a report ,from a 34 link to Foley about the Hurth transmission and to use this to help run cooler and longer. If I need to will stat a new link
Bill Miller
S/V Lorraine
Pacific Northwest,Sound Sound
Grapeview,Wa
1990 Mk1
Have not used Redline but I do use a full synthetic. Changed over 4 years ago with out any troubles.
Randy Sherwood
Mutualfun 1990 # 1057
T/R W/K M35a
Home. Charlotte, Mi.
Boat. St Augustine,Fl.
In my opinion the best thing for this transmission is a raw water cooler, synthetic fluid and frequent fluid changes. The cooler bolts directly to the case and I plumbed mine in line between the raw water strainer and the pump. I've been using Redline D4 for a couple of years now with no issues. We do a lot of motoring in the summer up here in the PNW and heat is a killer for transmissions. Keep the fluid clean and cool!!
David Simpson
S/V Dolce Vita
Vancouver BC
2001 Catalina 36 MK 11 #2019 M35B. Add-ons: Leece Neville 90 amp Alt. Balmar ARS 5 Regulator, Digital Duo Charger, Smartgauge battery monitor, Webasto TSL17 Hydronic heater.
Are there any suggestions on the type of transmission cooler? Just had my transmission replaced and I think it is a good investment. What I have read, the cooler the better for transmissions.
Thanks,
Dave Mariano
I had my local marine supplier order it in and it bolts directly onto the case. Google ZF10M transmissions for the info. I changed the hose connector on the raw water strainer to a 1-1/2 MPT to 1-1/8" hose to use a 1-1/8" hose to the cooler. From the outlet of the cooler I used a barb to barb hose adapter 1-1/8" to 5/8" to connect into the hose that goes to the raw water pump. Use a thin layer of gasket sealer on the cooler cover when mounting the cooler.
David Simpson
S/V Dolce Vita
Vancouver BC
2001 Catalina 36 MK 11 #2019 M35B. Add-ons: Leece Neville 90 amp Alt. Balmar ARS 5 Regulator, Digital Duo Charger, Smartgauge battery monitor, Webasto TSL17 Hydronic heater.
I am considering replacing the Zurich ZF-10m (2.05:1) with either a ZF-10M (1.792:1), or a rebuilt Hurth HB100 (1.8:1), which is what was in my boat originally. Is there a product quality difference between the Hurth and Zurich?
The ZF transmissions are of equal quality to the Hurths.
Nick Caballero
Retired C36/375IA Mk II Technical Editor
Hi,
New to this forum - I have a 2002 MKII 36 with a Hurth HBW 100 transmission that started to fail at the end of last season - it goes into reverse just fine but could take up to 5 tries to go into forward - clearly it needs to be addressed
Can anyone suggest the best option? rebuild or replace? If replace what are the best options & associated costs?
Thanks,
Karen
I replaced my Hurth 50 with a PRM 60 D2 everything is great but it has high freq noise so they said they will give me a new one ,this is the 4th one out of the factory so they want to be very helpful .Larry Brandt replaced his Hurth 100 with a PRM 120 and is very pleased but found the PRM 90 will fit better
Bill Miller
S/V Lorraine
Pacific Northwest,Sound Sound
Grapeview,Wa
1990 Mk1
Karen, your description sounds exactly like a clutch pack failure. Your transmission needs an overhaul, at least, if not a replacement. I urge you, should you decide to overhaul it, to go to the most reputable transmission shop you can find. There is an excellent shop in Everett, Washington, if you're on the west coast.
I recently dealt with HBW 100 issues (specifically two Hurth failures on my Inside Passage trip to Alaska last summer), and in desperation I replaced it with a PRM 120 in Prince Rupert, BC. The PRM 120 is not the ideal replacement for a number of reasons, not least of which is that it required me to reposition the engine 1 inch forward of the stock location. I recently purchased a PRM 90 in the hopes that would let me move the engine back to the original location, however I haven't done the installation yet as I am waiting for warm weather to do boat work. My hope is to document the installation for the C36IA Technical - Upgrades Library.
Call me if you'd like to discuss. My mobile # is 503.358.5102 in Oregon. I also have my old Hurth HBW 100 transmission for sale ($250 plus shipping) as a CORE that can be overhauled in case someone would want to have a fresh overhauled unit on hand before beginning the Hurth changeout. Just to be clear, my HBW 100 core NEEDS an overhaul.
Larry Brandt
S/V High Flight #2109
Pacific Northwest, PDX-based
2002 C-36 mkII SR/FK M35B