Hi Peter;
I'm sure that 'Maine Sail' will give a complete answer to your questions.
Until then; just want to say the Link Monitor is just a "monitor" and does not do anything to switch or regulate your charge voltage/currents.
Your alternator, if stock, has a built-in charge regulator and the solar controller is a separate unit just for regulating your solar panel charge currents and voltages.
Cheers,
Howard

This is a great question! I'm looking at almost the same challenge for our new-to-us 1999 Mk II - add a solar panel to keep batteries topped up on mooring and while cruising. But we also need to be able to charge from shore power on the rare occasions when we get a slip. We have two house batteries and no start battery, so an additional question is whether to add a start battery and how to (hopefully automatically) charge all that!

Previous boat's (C-34) PO had installed a solar panel, which worked great and we loved. But he had also disconnected shore power battery charger. (Once tried to get marine electrician to sort it all our but he got too busy/uninterested!)

Here's an attempt at the specs of what I think would be an ideal system:

1) Two house batteries
2) Start battery (to be added)
3) Solar panel (to be added)
4) Shore power charger
5) Solar panel continuously charges batteries. It charges start battery to full then switches to charging house bank (equalizing?).

Not sure about priority of charging by shore power - probably unimportant.

I guess what I'm looking for is a "black box" (or combination of boxes) that would take all inputs (alternator, solar panel and shore charger outputs) and send charging currents to batteries.

Also not sure if I'd have to change out main battery switch and what choices/positions that switch would have.

As a newbie here, I've searched the forum but haven't found direct answers. Really appreciate any and all advice!

If the recommendation is to 'find a good solar panel dealer that can sort this all out,' any recommendations for one near Annapolis, MD, where Tehani resides for the winter?

[QUOTE=Gorgonshead;15963]Hello all - I am getting confused between alternator charge controllers, solar charge controllers, and battery monitors.

1. I have a Link-2000 by "Heart Interface". It is old and don't trust it and am looking to replace it. If I understand it correctly this unit controls charging from the alternator, giving 3 phase charging and equalizing as needed.[/quote]

It only controls the alternator if it is a Link 2000[B]R[/B] There would be a second box in the engine space for the alternator if it is a 2000R. These were pretty buggy units. I've replaced many, and have one I am currently doing. I replace them with a Victron BMV-600 battery monitor and Balmar MC-614 regulator. This only works if the Link 2000 is not also controlling an inverter charger... These devices were simply too many eggs in one basket..

[QUOTE=Gorgonshead;15963]2. I am also looking to set up a solar system to keep the house battery bank topped off as I am on a mooring. I am looking at units with a MPPT controller.[/quote]

A PWM or MPPT controller is a good option just DO NOT buy a shunting controller... Buy NAME BRAND like Morningstar, Blue Sky, Genasun, Outback, Midnight Solar etc.. DO NOT buy stuff from "Sunforce" or from eBay. The best value in an MPPT are the Genasun units and they are good for panels up to 150W...

[QUOTE=Gorgonshead;15963]3. I have been reading other threads and the Victron BMV-600 looks like a good battery monitor.[/quote]

Best value going and an excellent product..

[QUOTE=Gorgonshead;15963]4. I don't really care about charging from shore power.[/quote]

Still can be a good idea to have a shore charger.

[QUOTE=Gorgonshead;15963]5. I may at some point want an AC inverter mainly to run the microwave.[/quote]

Done "properly" this can get expensive and you will need a large bank or a bank with a low Peukert exponent. For microwaves pure sine wave inverters work best.

[QUOTE=Gorgonshead;15963]1. Are Solar charge controllers and Alternator charge controllers completely separate items?[/quote]

Yes completely different products and not interchangeable .

[QUOTE=Gorgonshead;15963]Can they co-exist in the same system?[/quote]

Yes absolutely..

[QUOTE=Gorgonshead;15963]2. Any recommendations for alternator charge controllers?[/quote]

Balmar MC-614 preferably with at least an alternator temp sensor if your bank is large.

[QUOTE=Gorgonshead;15963]3. Does either charge controller perform the functions of the battery monitor?[/quote]

No.. A battery monitor monitors/counts Ah's in/out of the bank and correct for Peukert. They MUST be properly programmed in order to be as accurate as possible. While the instal is EASY the programming can be tricky.

[QUOTE=Gorgonshead;15963]4. Basically, am I going to need all three of these items?[/quote]

Alt reg, solar controller and battery monitor...

[QUOTE=Gorgonshead;15963]5. Does anyone out there have a system similar to this, and what hardware do you have?[/quote]

I have plenty of them installed and some even have wind too which requires yet another controller. I also have them with solar, wind, genset, alternator and hydrogenerator.......;)

My own boat has solar, shore charger, and alternator. It is getting a LiFePO4 battery bank this winter..!

All any of these controller do is "limit voltage" it is that simple. In BULK there is no voltage to limit, bank is not there yet, so solar, alt, wind etc. will be putting out all they can or all the bank will take. In absorption the voltage is limited to the absorption set point. Float is just another further reduced voltage limit.

I always tell my customers to thing of solar controllers and voltage regulators as this:

Voltage Limiter

Solar Voltage Limiter

Feel free to read these it may help put it all in perspective.:
[B][URL="http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=125392"]
Musings Rgarding External Regulation[/URL][/B]
[B]
[URL="http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/battery_monitor"]Wiring & Installing A Battery Monitor[/URL][/B]

"Maine Sail" you mentioned in your last post you are going to replace your battery bank with LiFePO4 . I am considering doing the same and would like to know what you choice is/was and why, if it requires switching out any of the other hardware in the system.
regards,

Peter,
I believe that #1-3 are easily within the abilities of many boat owners, as you are effectively removing and replacing. Granted the wiring might be different, but each item should come with instructions. #4 is a bit different, as you are starting from scratch. Wiring solar panels is fairly straight-forward, but mounting them is another story. Many options to choose from. Good luck with the projects.

Peter,

The PO had 2 panels mounted on a frame above the bimini. I added two more (with a separate controller) a few years later. This is just one example of a large commitment to solar power.

[QUOTE=jworth3;15965]

Here's an attempt at the specs of what I think would be an ideal system:

1) Two house batteries[/quote]

Go for the most Ah's you can fit. This will allow the lowest cycling depths and longest cycle life.

[QUOTE=jworth3;15965]2)Start battery (to be added)[/quote]

Multiple ways to do this. You can treat it as a "reserve" if you have a 1/2/BOTH and use your house bank for everything, or wire it as a "dedicated" battery for starting only.

[QUOTE=jworth3;15965]3) Solar panel (to be added)[/quote]

Good!

[QUOTE=jworth3;15965]4) Shore power charger[/quote]

Spend the money on a quality "marine" charger, even if using it infrequently.

[B][B][URL="http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/installing_a_marine_battery_charger"]Installing A Marine Battery Charger[/URL][/B][/B]

[QUOTE=jworth3;15965]5) Solar panel continuously charges batteries. It charges start battery to full then switches to charging house bank (equalizing?).[/quote]

You want all charge sources to go directly to the house bank FIRST. You can then use an Echo Charger, Balmar Duo Charger (or otehr B2B type charger) or an ACR type relay to combine the banks for charging. Equalizing should be done by shore charger and ideally one battery in the bank at a time. be sure to ventilate well. I would strongly suggest not tryingto use solar or alternator for equalizing.

[QUOTE=jworth3;15965] Not sure about priority of charging by shore power - probably unimportant.[/quote]

Again if you have an Echo, Duo or ACR then all charging goes direct to the house bank and the charger simply feeds the house. The other bank will be automatically charged by the Echo, Duo or ACR

[QUOTE=jworth3;15965] I guess what I'm looking for is a "black box" (or combination of boxes) that would take all inputs (alternator, solar panel and shore charger outputs) and send charging currents to batteries.[/quote]

No such thing exists. This is a much more complicated device to build than it would seem thus no one has built it. It would be quite expensive and not really a "necessary" device thus not much of a market for it..

[QUOTE=jworth3;15965] Also not sure if I'd have to change out main battery switch and what choices/positions that switch would have.[/quote]

If you have the 1/2/BOTH keep it... feel free to read this for more information:

[B][URL="http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=137615"]1/2/BOTH/OFF Switch Thoughts & Musings[/URL][/B]

[QUOTE=jworth3;15965]If the recommendation is to 'find a good solar panel dealer that can sort this all out,' any recommendations for one near Annapolis, MD, where Tehani resides for the winter?[/QUOTE]

If you have a bimini I would suggest considering a Solbian semi flexible panel and a Genasun MPPT controller.

Feel free to read these two articles on solar:

[B][URL="http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/solar_panel"]Installing A Small Marine Solar System[/URL][/B]

[B][URL="http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/solbian_solar_panel"]Installing A Solbian Solar Panel[/URL][/B]

[QUOTE=ciscocat;15971]"Maine Sail" you mentioned in your last post you are going to replace your battery bank with LiFePO4 . I am considering doing the same and would like to know what you choice is/was and why, if it requires switching out any of the other hardware in the system.
regards,[/QUOTE]

Mike,

Unless you are planning on buying pre-made LiFePO4 banks by Genasun or Mastervolt, read $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$, I would suggest this is NOT yet the time to step in as a DIY.

It can be easy to destroy these cells if the system is not done well and there is a LOT to consider for a DIY install. This is NOT a simple "drop in" system. I would STAY AWAY from the battery companies offering "drop in" replacement packs, at this time, other than Genasun or Mastervolt.

The "claims" have also not been proven in the real world of the marine environment. I'm sure we all remember the "claims" which then turned out to be lies and misinformation we were fed about AGM batteries, most of which had not an ounce of credibility in the "real world"... 80% cycle depth, yeah that's now 50% just like flooded... They don't sulfate, pure BS. They have twice the cycles of flooded batteries, again PURE BS and they actually have considerably less in the real world. Charge with regular equipment, yeah right, no Lifeline wants a minimum of 20% of "C" and Odyssey wants a minimum of 40% of "C".... Very few boats with "regular equipment have 20% of "C" let alone 40% of "C".....

I am NOT suggesting that LiFePO4 is going to turn out like AGM just suggesting that for now you play a wait and see.... Standard flooded batteries are still the best bang for the buck in Ah's/$$$ ratio, 6V especially.

LiFePO4, if the claims are true or even close to it, offer some TREMENDOUS advantages such as NO PEUKERT effect, no memory, no sulfation, no need to charge to 100% often, and the ability to recharge to 100% with no acceptance limiting.....

As a DIY I would hold onto your money until some of the pro's get some real world data and feed back. Some of the best guys in the industry are only recently getting their hands on this stuff. It will be a little while until we can offer real world data points...

Also there are a number of companies just now getting ready to launch marine LiFePO4 packs. My buddy Mark is one of them and he has spent TWO YEARS designing, testing and executing his BMS system. He has moved away from a "chip based" BMS and has gone "old school" for reliability but this is not easy, nor cheap....

At a minimum some things that are necessary:

*Over current protection with 50,000 AIC rating (very expensive!)
*BMS cell level system to monitor cell voltages
*Charging Bus
*Load Bus
*HVE Disconnect on charging bus with "field cut" for alt reg & cut out for other charge sources
*Must have external regulation
*Must have proerly programmed solar controller
*LVE disconnect for load bus (requires NC latching style relay)
*BMS manager with temp sensing, cell voltage, alarm signaling and relay control for LVE / HVE
*You'll also need a bench top DC switch mode power supply to re-balance the bank as it gets out of whack
*Large alternator with temp sensing and serpentine pulley kit
*Ah counter/battery monitor
*Audible alarm for approach of LV threshold/discharge knee on any cell
*Audible alarm for approach of HV threshold on any cell

These are just the bare minimums to have if you are spending money on this technology..

[quote=jworth3;15965]
I guess what I'm looking for is a "black box" (or combination of boxes) that would take all inputs (alternator, solar panel and shore charger outputs) and send charging currents to batteries.
[/quote]

Aside from this not existing, I think it would be a bad idea. I like redundancy, and to have all your charging inputs going through one box gives you no redundancy at all when it dies.

Currently, we have 4 separate charging sources:
1./engine alternator/external regulator
2./220W solar panel with MPPT controller
3./200W wind generator with onboard controller
4./50Amp IOTA battery charger and a 2Kw generator to power it away from shore power.

Lots of redundancy there.

Also, in terms of solar panel sizing, a lot of the numbers you see for what they will produce are under ideal circumstances. The reality for northern sailors is those numbers are not going to be what you will see. Other than for a couple of hours at midday, we never see max output from our panel. Being able to angle the panels will help but do your calculations for sizing on the very conservative side.

Don't think I read this in this thread but your starting point for all this has to be knowing how many amp hours a day you are going to use. Without that, everything else is a guesstimate and likely will be wrong.

Maine - thanks for fantastically valuable information, especially the links. (I now know that my C-34 had a DSP switch!)

OK, back to basics... What I absolutely know right now is that the "new" C-36 has two batteries and a 1-B-2-OFF switch. What I absolutely don't know is how those are wired up! I also need to figure out what the shore charger is, what type and size the batteries are, any other boxes in the circuit, size and type of alternator, etc.

So my current plan is to trace out the wiring on my next visit to the boat so I'm sure what the current condition is. Then I'll re-study your posts to see what it should be.

The Solbian solar panel sounds like the perfect solution! When I get the schematic drafted on what the system should be, I'll be able to enquire of my new friends here where in the circuit the solar controller should be wired in.

MANY thanks again!

[QUOTE=jworth3;15989]Maine - thanks for fantastically valuable information, especially the links. (I now know that my C-34 had a DSP switch!)

OK, back to basics... What I absolutely know right now is that the "new" C-36 has two batteries and a 1-B-2-OFF switch. What I absolutely don't know is how those are wired up! I also need to figure out what the shore charger is, what type and size the batteries are, any other boxes in the circuit, size and type of alternator, etc.

So my current plan is to trace out the wiring on my next visit to the boat so I'm sure what the current condition is. Then I'll re-study your posts to see what it should be.

The Solbian solar panel sounds like the perfect solution! When I get the schematic drafted on what the system should be, I'll be able to enquire of my new friends here where in the circuit the solar controller should be wired in.

MANY thanks again![/QUOTE]

My friend is the US importer for Solbian and as such I can often save you about 5% over buying direct. While not much it all adds up. Because these are made and imported from France there is not a lot of margin in them, just like electronics. If you are interested in a Solbian let me know and I can probably help save you a little...

Maine sail,
Thanks for the reply I guess I'll wait a bit before doing anything. The main features I like about those type of batteries are the weight and the battery life. They do offer some real advantages in those areas. If the life of the batteries prove to be true then the overall cost makes more sense.

[quote=Maine Sail;15990]My friend is the US importer for Solbian and as such I can often save you about 5% over buying direct. While not much it all adds up. Because these are made and imported from France there is not a lot of margin in them, just like electronics. If you are interested in a Solbian let me know and I can probably help save you a little...[/quote]

Those panels are super interesting. We're in weight saving mode, since we're not going to be doing any long distance cruising I'm looking at getting rid of weight, especially off the ends of the boat. I'm tired of seeing our boot top under water at the stern. We're selling our 10' RIB and 9.8 OB and going to a 7' airfloor dinghy with a 3.5. That gets 115 lbs off our davits. Replacing our 220 watt panel with a pair of 125 Solbians gets 45 more lbs off our davits. I sent Bruce an email about Canadian dealers, he got back to me immediately. Thanks for the tip on these panels.

Bud;
Ganz also makes flexible panels up to 55W (see the link below)

[url]http://www.cbcamerica.com/microsite/page.cfm?id=103682&aid=281[/url]

I can get them through a Canadian supplier, if you're interested I can pass on the specifics. Be advised though that no flexible panel will be as efficient as a good rigid glass panel.

Cheers,

Howard

[QUOTE=HowLin;16002]Bud;
Ganz also makes flexible panels up to 55W (see the link below)

[url]http://www.cbcamerica.com/microsite/page.cfm?id=103682&aid=281[/url]

I can get them through a Canadian supplier, if you're interested I can pass on the specifics. [B]Be advised though that no flexible panel will be as efficient as a good rigid glass panel.[/B]

Cheers,

Howard[/QUOTE]

This is un-true with the Solbian panels. They use monocrystalline cells just like a quality rigid panel but have a patented process that makes them EXTREMELY light and semi flexible. These are NOT armorphous panels, which are horribly inefficient, and they compete efficiency wise with top brands like Kyocera. In fact the Solbian panels actually exceed some of Kyocera's efficiency ratings... They are also more efficient than the Ganz product, lighter and more flexible... I currently have a Kyocera 140W panel that weighs nearly 40 pounds installed. I will be adding a CP125 to my bimini in the spring which will come in at about 6 pounds........