Interesting discussion. We bought a Kipor 2Kw, up here Honda wants $1600 (before tax!) for their 2Kw units and the Kipor was half that. Tried to buy a Honda in the US but no dealer will ship to Canada, Honda does not allow it. Same for Yamaha. What a rip off.

I bought it to be able to run some of our heating equipment overnight in winter when the power goes out, but took it on the boat this year since we were spending all summer out. With the wind and solar we have I only ran it twice. Once because we had no wind and a lot of cloud for 48 hours and once just because it hadn't been run for a few weeks and it needed exercise. When the wind and sun cooperate we need nothing, we sat for 6 days in an anchorage this summer and the batteries were fully topped up to float by dusk every night. Solar beats wind hands down just because it's totally quiet, but I like the wind gen as well, gives a little more versatility and I actually like the sound of it, though not while trying to sleep.

First time I ran it on the boat it was on the foredeck, the noise coming through the deck was awful inside the boat, the cats were very pissed. Put it on the halyard and it was better but pretty unstable. Next time I put it in the cockpit with the exhaust pointing out the transom walk-thru and it was way quieter. Having 110V inputs at both ends it very useful. It runs our 50 amp charger and the hot water heater once the charger goes into absorption. For the price, I am happy with the Kipor.

We keep the gas for the dinghy (and gen but I never added any to either all summer) on the rail in a 20litre jug with our reserve diesel jug. We use premium gas as it supposedly contains no ethanol, but despite that I still treat all gas with a stabilizer.

I still would rather run a cheap generator to charge batteries than an expensive diesel, yet we see people all the time with no auxiliary charging systems running their diesels for hours at anchor or on a mooring. That's crazy.

When you cruise South Florida, the Bahamas and the Keys electrical power on the Lila Jean (C375#16)) is a very big deal (ask the Admiral). Air Conditioning, hot water, and battery charging all take lots of energy and by May things are hot. I admit we are energy hogs when we cruise but my solution after a lot of trial and error was as follows:
1. I installed a 1500 W invertor to run the general low power appliances on 110 V such as microwave and television;
2. Replaced the two Catalina stock wet cell (160AH) batteries with two new AGM (205AH) batteries. There is no more room on the C375 for more batteries;
3. Installed a dedicated starter battery (#27). This required moving the port water tank forward about 6 inches so that all 3 batteries would fit (its tight).
4. Replaced the 30 amp battery charger with a 70 amp smart charger;
5. Installed a Dometic SmartStart device on the Marvair 16,000 BTU air conditioner (Catalina factory installed unit)
6. Purchased a Honda 2000i generator.

These conversions were not cheap but they were all designed around the energy capabilites of the Honda 2000. I store the Honda, when not in use, either in the starboard cockpit locker (strapped in) or under the raised helm seat. I run the Honda on the swim platform and keep the Honda's extra capacity fuel tank (5 gal) under the helm seat when the Honda is running on the swim platform. All gasoline is stored in the swim platform lockers which are completely segregated from the boat's bilge and interior or on the foredeck in jerry cans. I plug the Honda 110V output with a 30amp adapter to either the A/C input plug (air conditioning) or the general input plug for the boats general 110 V circuits(battery charging, hot water, etc). The Honda will heat water, charge your batteries or run the A/C [B]but only one function at a time[/B].

Running the A/C is the biggest load on the Honda and will burn 2 gallons of gas each night. The Dometic SmartStart reduces the startup loads on the A/C and usually allows the Honda to run in eco mode. If it is particularly hot and muggy we sometimes have to run full RPM in the generator mode (more noise and fuel consumption). The noise below is quite acceptable and my neighbors at anchor have never complained ( I have polled them on the noise issue).

Hot water takes just 30 minutes with the Honda. At 50% discharge the Honda and 70 amp charger take about 3 hours to get back to 90%.

My entire energy system capital costs were less than $3000. A solar / wind combination system would cost more and not deliver my needed continuous 1600 W of power. A diesel 4KW genset installed is over $10,000 and takes up a lot of room.

Setting up the Honda for a night's anchorage is a little work but when its 90 degrees, 80% humidity and the bugs are out I love my Honda.

Rod Tennyson C-375 #16

I do not have either a dingy or back up generator and it appears most of you discussing this have later model boats with different storage options than my MKI boat. As for fuel storage other than strapped on deck as suggested by Rockman, I have a fair amount of room in my anchor locker, it too is isolated from the bilge and has an overboard drain so vapors would not be trapped. Would that not be a decent place for raw fuel or am I missing something?

Hi Steve,

If you don't have a dinghy or a generator, I wouldn't start now. I am thrilled to not have any gasoline on my boat. I always hated carrying gas around for my RIB on my charter (power) boat. And once I almost blew up into smithereens on the last gas-powered boat I will ever own, when a fuel hose began to mist gas onto the engine block. :eek: Just no need for gas on my C36 cruising the Channel Islands.

My $0.02

Nick

I use 2x2.5 Gallon containers that fit nicely under the transom (walk-thru) seat on a MKll.
John Meyer

What are you guys using these generators for? Air conditioning?

I use mine to charge batteries and to heat the water vs. running the engine, works well when one sits still for more than one day.

[QUOTE=Gary Bain;19576]I use mine to charge batteries and to heat the water vs. running the engine, works well when one sits still for more than one day.[/QUOTE]

Thanks. I assume you have a Seaward water heat with a 1500W 120V heating element, or something equivalent? What kind of battery charger?

Nothing too sophisticated for a charger. I purchased a 10 amp charger at Napa Auto parts and just wired it into the system. Sits on the shelf above the Nav station. Have to set it for wet cell batteries, it has done the job 2 amps or 10 amps.

Yes, thanks. So, I'm puzzled about this whole Honda generators on boats thing. The generator costs about $1k. It is probably no faster heating water than running the main engine, assuming your water heater is in good shape, and you can close the coolant bypass. Further, it is incredibly slow charging batteries, since you will get a maximum of 10A in your case. It could take 14 or 16 hours to charge a 300 AH bank from 60% SoC. The main engine, with a 100A alternator, could do this in 1.5 to 2 hours. When you consider the cost, the trouble of storing it, moving it around, and having to carry and handle gasoline, I simply don't get it.

If you're using it intermittently to run a hair dryer, or you lack an inverter and want to run a microwave or coffee maker, yes, I get that, but I couldn't be bothered. Likewise, if you use it to power electric tools, I get that. But every day use for hot water and battery charging makes no sense to me.

I don't have a generator (do have 480W of solar), but one reason not to habitually use the main engine to charge batteries or heat water is that running a diesel at low loads is not good for it.

Some charter boats have an engine-driven compressor for the refrigerator cold-plate, plus a large alternator for battery charging, and the combined load is not too bad. Just turning an alternator, even a large one, does not produce much load for the engine.

If I were to buy another boat (not considering it anymore) while living in Florida, I would consider a quiet, diesel built-in generator to run air conditioning. I have no plans, however, to add a generator (even a portable) to this boat.

The notion that running one's diesel to charge batts is bad for it is overblown. At 80A, considering energy conversion inefficiencies and friction, you are probably consuming 4HP or so, which is about 20% of rated output of my M25. In 29 years of operation this way, over 3,000 hours of engine operation, there's no smoking or other signs the engine's any the worse for wear.

These same engines are in small tractors, fork lifts, skid-steers, and other equipment, many more than sailboats, probably by a factor of 100's of thousands, and those tractors idle many, many hours, and rack up many more total hours, without ill effects.

It is true that you don't want to do this to a new engine, as the rings will not seat properly, you'll glaze the cylinders, and it will smoke. So break-in should be at about 80% of rated load for probably at least 10 hours.

Major boat manufacturers build them this way, including boats at $1/2M plus. They all seem to work very well.

So, I disagree, based on years of experience, m own and that of millions in the sailing community, that it's not good for the engine to do this.

Well, jviss, you make a strong case based upon your experience and I won't try to dispute it. That is good news, and maybe the 'conventional wisdom' that is out there in abundance will eventually change.

[QUOTE=deising;19594]Well, jviss, you make a strong case based upon your experience and I won't try to dispute it. That is good news, and maybe the 'conventional wisdom' that is out there in abundance will eventually change.[/QUOTE]

Hi Duane,

Thanks for your reply. Are you saying that the conventional wisdom is that a portable gas generator makes sense for charging batteries and heating water? I beg to disagree.

In my cruising, which is limited to the area from the Long Island Sound to Nantucket, portable generators are not at all the norm. I am not surprised, given the rather poor utility they provide for the cost, trouble, and risk (i.e., gasoline and carbon monoxide).

You hardly ever see one, and when you do, in an anchorage, it's often considered somewhat rude and obnoxious due to the noise. Admittedly, the Hondas are very quiet, but not nearly as quiet as someone's main engine running; and there are much noisier air-cooled, gas generators placed on folk's bows or swim platforms.

As I said, having done the math, I simply don't get it. How big is your house bank, and how long to full charge with one of these?

No, jvss, I thought we were talking about low-load running being bad for a diesel engine over the long run. That was the ONLY point I was trying to make.

I think there is still a lot of that advice 'out there' and if it is truly incorrect in many cases (not all diesel engines are alike, of course), then hopefully it will be corrected over time.

Just to repeat, I have never had a generator and don't plan to put one on this boat. For our cruising grounds, FL and Bahamas, our large solar array does a super job for us. No A/C at anchor, of course, but we make do by not cruising much in the dead of summer.

Gotcha. Yes, you have a ton of solar power! I have a 51 panel that I stow, and deploy when we're at anchor more than a day. It helps, and it's silent.

We used our Honda Generator more when we used to go back and forth on weekends to Catalina from LA. Guests liked a hot shower. After installing two 135 Watt solar planes, I did not need the Honda for charging batteries. Since spending the last two seasons in Mexico, we have never used it; other than to fire it up just to make sure it runs. We finally brought it home from Mexico as it is heavy and took up useful space in the cockpit locker. We use a solar shower bag when at anchor or off-shore and a gallon each is about all we need for a quick shower.
I have two, WM 2.5 gallon gas tanks for the outboard which I store on a towel under the aft seat in the cockpit walk-through. The towel is to stop them sliding around when sailing. I have to tilt them slightly to get them into this space and therefore they cannot get under your feet as the lip on the removable seat stops them moving out of this area.
Hilbre

jviss

Speaking of rude and obnoxious. Two weeks ago we were in one of our favourite little anchorages. Another sailboat came in and anchored upwind of us, well clear, all seemed fine. Forty something Beneteau with a 40 something Yanmar. Until late in the afternoon when they cranked up the diesel and let it run for two hours. We were the beneficiaries of his diesel stench and the noise of his motor until dusk. To say diesels are quieter than a little Honda generator is really stretching reality. The burbling exhaust, the gushes of water are just as loud as any Honda I ever heard. Then next morning, same show, same stench, same racket. Turns out they were heating water and charging batteries with their diesel and we got to smell the stink for two hours at a time. That is rude and obnoxious and I would far rather have listened to and smelled a Honda than that.

The people that own the boat on the next mooring over from ours have a habit of showing up at 11:30 pm, well after cruiser's midnite, and immediately charge the batteries with the diesel for an hour or two to "heat water and charge batteries". The traditional rude and obnoxious in this part of the world has always been someone running an inboard, be it a main or genny engine, in an anchorage or mooring field.

As for the opinion that running a diesel lightly loaded is not an issue, as Stu says, your boat, your money. Just don't do it upwind of some other poor guy. Your anecdotal belief that it's no issue goes against the grain of the advice from many well respected people in the diesel industry that say doing this is not good for your motor. I respect their opinions far more than an anonymous poster on an internet forum.

My experience with industrial diesels, and I have a lifetime of it in agriculture, forestry, trucking and construction is these machines idle little and work like dogs a lot. Nobody makes money sitting idling. They work far harder than your boat engine ever will and it's that hard work that gets rid of any build up of unburned fuel contamination and carbon that eventually will trash a motor. But if you want to run a $10K engine to do what a $800 engine can do just as well, be my guest, just don't do it upwind of me.

It will be a cold day in hell when I run my diesel to do anything other than move the boat. If my wind or solar can't do the job, which so far has been the case twice in three years, I'll haul out my quiet little gen and let it run, in my cockpit, as unobtrusively as possible, joining the many others in my area who carry and use small generators rather than run the diesel.

Old saying, opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one and they all stink. Same can be said for engines in boats.

Gee, Bud, you certainly feel strongly about this.

That said, there are perhaps millions of auxiliaries with inboard diesels as main propulsion and only source of electrical power and heat, yet there dearth of discussion online or elsewhere of the, according to you, "trashing" of these engines. That's because it simply isn't happening. A new engine, not broken in properly under load, and run no-load, yes, this is no good. But a properly broken in engine running at even 10% rated load to charge batteries will go like that seemingly forever, as it evidenced by the millions of sailboats doing it.

I personally have never never been bothered by a boat anchored nearby running its inboard diesel, main propulsion or generator, and confess I've never been annoyed at any diesel exhaust odor; maybe I just have to get out more. Further, yes, Hondas are pretty quiet. I find noisy wind generators much more annoying and have moved my boat in an anchorage because of them.

You can always move your boat if you're downwind of a running diesel and it's annoying you. Not so with noise, though, you just can't get away from it.

So, I take it you're carry a generator for the sole purpose of augmenting solar and wind charging, and have used it only twice in three years? Why would running the diesel to charge at that frequency trash it?

I still don't get the utility of these. They are, I guess, good water heaters, good AC sources, but pretty poor battery chargers.

Hey guys, let's play nice! :)

[quote=jviss;19624]They are, I guess, good water heaters, good AC sources, but pretty poor battery chargers.[/quote]

I beg to differ. They are very good battery chargers, IF you use the 110V output to power the battery charger built into your boat. If you use the 12V output of the Honda (only 8A, I believe), they will take FOREVER.

When idling, diesels really never get up to temp, and for me that means it takes a LONG time to heat water. The 1500W heating element in the water heater heats the water quicker with the Honda, than idling the engine, in my experience.

As has been said before, your boat, your choice.

I'd just like to say, I'm not trolling here, i.e., trying to start an argument or something like that. And, I'm not some anonymous guy on the internet, I'm a member here, etc.

I recognize this is one of those perennial debates with two irreconcilable sides to it, like the motor oil debate, gasoline additive, speaker cable, etc. I guess I'm not going to convince anyone.

I also apologize for hijacking this thread, I know the original question was where to store petrol.

I am genuinely interested in why folks use these - the reasons, rationale, etc.

For the record, I don't think it's a good idea, for safety reasons: fuel, fumes, and AC (no GFCI protection). I don't even carry gas onboard for my dinghy; if I bring the dinghy I tow it, and the 6 gallon tank, which stays in the dinghy, is all the gas I bring.

I do appreciate the value of a generator, but would only get one if it was permanently and correctly mounted inboard, liquid cooled, and diesel powered. Even so, I don't think I want one, since we don't have air conditioning, and I don't care for the additional expense and maintenance of having a generator.

I have an inverter, a fairly small one. It's wired into my boat's electrical system. I turn it on with a 100A breaker. For short periods of use I just run it off the house bank. If I need to run a heavy load for a long time I run the main engine. I can run about 1kW continuously this way. The big limitation is the size of the alternator on the engine, the alternator belt, and the alternator bracket. It's mostly used for charging or running things for which I don't have DC adapters, like a Macbook, and occasionally running an AC power tool. If money was no object I would get one of those serpentine belt upgrades ($700), a 300A alternator, and a 4kW inverter.

For heating water I'm surprised I can't find a marine, propane-fired, instant water heater. These are super-efficient, super-quiet, and not expensive. They are popular in RVs. Still, it would have to be properly installed, because of a hot exhaust, and risk of asphyxiation if not properly vented.

So, to each his own.

[QUOTE=TomSoko;19626]I beg to differ. They are very good battery chargers, IF you use the 110V output to power the battery charger built into your boat. If you use the 12V output of the Honda (only 8A, I believe), they will take FOREVER.
[/QUOTE]
Hey Tom,

What size battery charger do you have in the boat? Mine's only 10A total, so not much better than the 8A Honda output. There's no "standard" battery charger in boats like ours that I know of. I agree, if you couple a portable AC generator to a high-output battery charger, like at least a 40A charger, you have a decent battery charger. But the portable AC generator all by itself is a pretty poor battery charger.

on the propane fired water heaters.

They did indeed use to make on demand propane hot water heaters. I recall reading about them, and thinking what a great idea they were. One unit was a nice compact stainless steel unit made for the marine environment.

The problem was that there were numerous fatalities and near fatalities due to carbon monoxide poisoning. Seems that they were often installed in the head or other closed compartment and the carbon monoxide rapidly became a problem.

I'd guess that the safety issues and the chances of being sued to death caused them to disappear from the market (at least so far as I've seen).

[QUOTE=plaineolde;19644]on the propane fired water heaters.

They did indeed use to make on demand propane hot water heaters. I recall reading about them, and thinking what a great idea they were. One unit was a nice compact stainless steel unit made for the marine environment.

The problem was that there were numerous fatalities and near fatalities due to carbon monoxide poisoning. Seems that they were often installed in the head or other closed compartment and the carbon monoxide rapidly became a problem.

I'd guess that the safety issues and the chances of being sued to death caused them to disappear from the market (at least so far as I've seen).[/QUOTE]

I've heard about those accidents, too. Tragic. You'd think you could install them safely some how.

Jviss,
I had a 40A charger on Julandra, and I have a 100A charger on Juniper. In an hour or so I can bring the batteries back to about 80%.

Two boats ago (C30) I had a Paloma water heater. LPG fuel, instant hot water. Loved it. Mounted aft of nav station, under the huge companionway. No CO problems. Those and Wolter went out of business, I think.

Wow, 100A - that's quite a charger. yes, I can see how a portable generator will bring your batts back fast.

I looked, Paloma is still in business. There's also Excel, which doesn't require a stack or pilot light.

Another option for hot water, especially if you need heat, is a hydronic diesel heater, which heats water and circulates it to registers (vs. heating air thru ducts). I put an Espar heater on my boat a couple years ago, but went the air heater route; I can get hot water running the engine with a big alternator in about 20 minutes, when necessary.

Somewhat back on topic; where do folks store their Honda 2000 generators? My slip neighbor has one on his 36ft Beneteau; he keeps it under the removable helm seat. Will one fit under the C36 helm seat (Mk II???).

[QUOTE=jviss;19627]
For heating water I'm surprised I can't find a marine, propane-fired, instant water heater. These are super-efficient, super-quiet, and not expensive. They are popular in RVs. Still, it would have to be properly installed, because of a hot exhaust, and risk of asphyxiation if not properly vented.

So, to each his own.[/QUOTE]

Surprising that you feel the EU2000 are not the safest choice but then opine about on-demand propane water heaters....;)

I know of not a single on-demand propane water heater that meets the current marine safety standards.

I have even had to remove one such unit where the company INTENTIONALLY mislead the owner into believing it was a "marine unit". It was not "marine" and his insurance company refused to issue policy until it was removed.

Buyer beware if an on-demand propane water heater claims to be "marine"... If anyone knows of a true sealed combustion on-demand water heater that meets the current marine safety standards please let me know about it. Most are exhaust stack only or "vent-free" and these DO NOT meet current safety standards no matter how much the company tries to mislead you.

Yes, I hear you, I wouldn't install one unless it was a proper marine unit, approved, etc. My current propane-fired water heater is the range!

Ya know, to the untrained (like myself), it doesn't seem like it would be that difficult to produce a safe flash hot water heater. I had a demand hot water heater installed in my basement last year. It pulls air from outside for combustion and vents the exhaust outdoors via a fan. All through PVC plastic pipe, so heat is not an issue. You'd think that a completely sealed, safe unit could be manufactured for a boat or RV??

Maybe not as simple as it would seem.

[QUOTE=plaineolde;19660]Ya know, to the untrained (like myself), it doesn't seem like it would be that difficult to produce a safe flash hot water heater. I had a demand hot water heater installed in my basement last year. It pulls air from outside for combustion and vents the exhaust outdoors via a fan. All through PVC plastic pipe, so heat is not an issue. You'd think that a completely sealed, safe unit could be manufactured for a boat or RV??

Maybe not as simple as it would seem.[/QUOTE]

Indeed, but it would end up costing quite a bit more than the basic on-demand water heater, I think. If Dickinson can make proper marine propane heaters which pull outside air through the stack for combustion, and exhaust through the same stack, then the same approach could be used for on-demand water heaters. I guess the market is just too small.