We became owners of our '85 Mk I at the end of October, after looking at perhaps a dozen C36s of various vintages on the market in our area. One of the things we liked on the Mark IIs (which, alas, our new boat lacks) is the clear hatch over the forepeak, which really lights things up.
As a result, we decided this could be one of our first upgrades.
So we recently purchased (but have not yet installed) the "Catalina Retrofit Hatch," a smoked acrylic hatch from Cruising Concepts ([url]http://www.cruisingconcepts.com/v%20berth%20h.htm[/url]) that supposedly is specifically designed for our model. However, we're dithering as to whether to go ahead with this project (We can still return it if it hasn't been drilled), for the reasons below, and wondering if anyone on the list has any experience with this product.
This weekend we managed to get under the snow-covered winter cover and tried to "dry fit" the replacement. The fist issue we noticed is that the shape of the existing hatch along the bottom edge (i.e., the forward edge) is slightly concave, to handle a slight crown in the deck at the bottom (forward end) of the opening (i.e., the side where the hatch dogs go, opposite the hinges). The replacement, however, is flat across this dimension, so it sits flush in the middle but stands proud a bit at the lower corners. Obviously, without drilling and installing, we can’t tell whether the hatch dogs will pull it down flat, although when hand pressure was applied it did seem to be able to bend downward enough.
We're concerned as to whether bending it will weaken it over time? Or, if so, is it possible to gently reshape it a little with a heat gun so that it lies flat?
Second, another difference between the OEM hatch and the Cruising Concepts replacement is that the fiberglass hatch has a lip around the edge which would, it seems, helps deflect water away from the sealing gasket. Since the replacement is simply a sheet without the lip, it seems to me that getting a flat fit between the replacement hatch and the seal is even more critical for keeping water out – particularly at this location.
As we purchased our boat at season's end, we don't have much experience as to issues concerning leaks at the front hatch (leaks were inevitable issues on our prior boats, we just don't know where to expect the ones on our new one!). Obviously, this is an important area, subject to some significant water impact from waves. Is the front hatch on the Mark I in general a trouble spot, and, if so, should we leave well enough alone?
We like the idea of this hatch very much, but are concerned about the water tightness because of the fit issues, and don’t want to find out the answer to this once its been drilled and installed (and thus no longer returnable). Any thoughts appreciated.
Matthew Chachère
s/v ¡Que Chévere!
(Formerly 1985 C36 MKI #466 tall rig fin keel M25)
2006 Catalina Morgan 440 #30.
Homeported in eastern Long Island, NY
I had a similar hatch made for the Santana 35 that I used to work on, and had the same problems. How to get the Acrylic hatch to conform perfectly to the boat? In the end I never did, and the Santana had a slightly deeper trough around the hatch to carry water away, so I didn't worry about it. It only leaked a bit when green water came over the front, but we were ok with it on that boat since it had no V-berth.
Looking at my C36 though, I would not find that occasional leaking acceptable. If I wanted more light up front I would consider 2 options:
1 would be to cut a hole in the exisiting fore hatch, and screw/glue the acrylic onto it, thus keeping the existing hatch frame intact. This would also be much cheaper than the hatch you bought from CC. This would not be quite as pretty as other options though I suspect.
2 would be to leave the exisitng hatch alone, and put a Lewmar hatch (like the one just aft of the mast) into the foredeck, probably on the flat part forward of the cabin. This would also add lots of ventilation at anchor, and would provide a hatch through which I could drop the spinnaker without worrying about tears like with the current hatch. These hatches are not cheap of course, but are typically very waterproof and strong. This hatch would replace one of the little deck prisms that are in the foredeck currently. Also by having this further forward over the V-berth it would be easier to enter/exit the boat through this hatch if required for some reason, say for example the kids are sleeping in the main cabin.
Jason V
Vancouver, BC, Canada
David and Margarita,
If the new acrylic hatch does not fit properly, I think you would be asking for trouble in the future. Having to dog the new hatch down excessively tight to get a good seal is not a good long-term solution, IMHO. I've heard of some owners putting both the new and old hatch in an oven, one on top of the other, at a low temp, and letting the acrylic mold itself to the old fiberglass hatch. Not sure I would want to try it, but it has been done. One other thing to consider. A buddy of mine bought one of those replacement hatches, and quickly found out that it was as slick as ice when it was wet. He fell a few times before he broke down and put non-skid tape strips on the hatch, somewhat negating the new and improved sunlight below. Hope this helps.
Tom Sokoloski
C36/375IA Past Commodore
Noank, CT
These are all very useful comments (which makes us realize that perhaps we should have posted this query BEFORE we bought the thing).
Tom's comment about the slipperyness factor of the Cruising Concept hatch struck us as well (as we were dry-fitting it yesterday), which also militates against going forward with the project as is.
A quick online check of Lewmar prices gives us a sense that we could follow Jason's suggestion and put in a substantially-sized Lewmar Ocean Hatch (which I think is their heaviest-duty hatch) for about the same money as the Cruising Concepts (albeit with perhaps more work) -- and end up with a much more seaworthy solution.
We do wish there was a way to simply replace the existing hatch with a Lewmar, but that would, it seems, require first reconstructing the existing hatch opening so its reasonably flat, as in the Mark II.
The Cruising Concept hatch does look VERY nice aesthetically, though (if you've seen the picture on their website). But from the practical seaworthiness standpoint, this may ultimately not be the way for us to go.
We'll stand by to see if any other comments come in before we make our decision as to whether to proceed or simply return it.
Matthew Chachère
s/v ¡Que Chévere!
(Formerly 1985 C36 MKI #466 tall rig fin keel M25)
2006 Catalina Morgan 440 #30.
Homeported in eastern Long Island, NY
I noticed a fellow installing one of those on his boat a few slips down from mine. He had just completed the installation, and I haven;t run into him since, so I don't know what kind of experience he's had with it, but I remember thinking it seemed a lot less likely to withstand a weather encounter than the original.
It's a tough call though, since the V-berth must be a lot like a bears den on the boats with the fiberglass hatch closed. Since it really would be the most benefit at the dock or at anchor, maybe a solution that would prevent rain from entering the open hatch could be devised?
Bill Boggs
s/v Palmetto Moon
1991 C36, Hull 1128
Herrington Harbor South
Chesapeake Bay
We originally bought our boat, in part, 'cuz of the aft berth, but since switched to the V berth. Our C34 V berths are somewhat larger than your C36s'. We have a Mark I with the solid hatch.
You will find that you cannot sleep in with a clear hatch.
Many of those with clear hatches do one, and one thing only, first: buy a Sunbrella cover for it, either inside or out.
I have not, in 13 years with this boat, ever felt it necessary to "have more light" in the V berth. Either I'm sleeping or sailing or it's dark outside.
There is great validity to the slip-and-slide issue, too.
Stu Jackson, C34IA Secretary, C34 #224, 1986, SR/FK, M25 engine, Rocna 10 (22#)
I have to agree with Stu. I looked into the clear front V-berth hatch. No doubt about it, the clear plastic hatch looks great. I am impressed when I see a 36 with the new hatch... but to swap a nice dark V-berth for a well lit one? We find there is more than enough light in the V-berth. If I need more light I turn on the lights or open the hatch. My wife and I have gone one step further and made small Velcro attached blinds to keep the light from coming in from the front deck rectangular plastic sky lights.
If I am understanding what has previously been said and take it from someone that still can't understand the concept, "If it ain't broken, don't fix it!"
Chris Stewart
S/V "24~7"
1984 Catalina 36 Tall
Hull #251 M25
(SF Bay) Alameda, CA
I have always been impressed with the brightness of the traditional deck prism. Bright as a 100 watt bulb.
Mark Andrews
S/V Grace
86 C36 #995730
San Diego
I had the solid fiberglass hatch on my 30 and also on my last 36. I found it much more surefooted on the foredeck when I could just walk all over the hatch without a thought. Now, on my '91, I have the "clear" (read:crazed) Lewmar hatch and find that I consciously avoid ever stepping on it for fear that it will either a) give way or b) be too slippery. I think it might just be a "grass is greener" thing. When you think about it, there's no light from either at night and if you're sleeping in, why would you want to be awakened by sunlight? The only time I appreciate the extra light is when I'm making up the bed.
Mike
Deja Vu
1991 MK I # 1106
Marina del Rey, CA
So...I actually installed one on our 1987 Cat 36. I like it a lot. Keeping in mind we are SF Bay day/occasional overnight sailors, perhaps you will find the following helpful:
1. Installation and attention to detail is critical. Measure one, twic, three times before drilling. I placed painters tape in the drill areas so as to both mark holes. (double check position in both open and closed positions!) and to alleviate risks of chipping or scratching the plexi with the drill bit.
2. Due to the slight crown on the boat, the hinges (get new) should be slightly shimmed and the screws set with sealant.
3. Due to crown of deck, I find you need to screw dow the dogs a little bit more to ensure no leaks. Not perfect, in my mind, but it has not been an issue. Last Resort sits at Westpoint Marina, in the SF bay area. We have had some torrential rain storms since installing two years ago....no issues re leaks. If you are concerned you shim the gasket (again, new) from underneath (between gasket and deck) on either side of the hull crown deflection. Thi 'levels' the seal. I did not do so, but did consider it.
4. Light. It is just great. Brightened the interior appreciably, making the interior look and feel larger and more inviting. As to overnights, the tint is quit dark. As a result, once the sun sets,it basically 'blacks out' but for any direct lights overhead. For me, simply not an issue. The little light that does transmit through from external sources is no more an issue than sleeping under the stars.
The litmus test is 'Would I do it again?'. The answer is yes. Last Resort, now 25 years old looks a bit more contemporary and the interior much more 'open'
Hope this helps.
Al
Al
Last Resort
Catalina 36, Hull 667
1987, Tall Rig
Universal M25
Westpoint Marina, SF Bay,CA
Adventure lies not within the calm embrace of harbor! Look beyond the blue horizon. There she awaits!
I also had a crazed forward hatch (all of the top hatches were crazed) and then the forward one got a crack in it. I removed the hinges and took the top part to a local plastics place. They replaced the lexan for about $200. I liked that so much I did the same for the hatch over the head and over the main salon for another $200. I'll get around to the one in the aft cabin some day but since that's always under the dodger I kinda don't notice it. The only difference is they used a bronze tint which was different than the blue tint of the original. That was because that is what they had in stock. A PO had installed snap on interior covers for both forward and salon hatches so it is easy to deal with the sunlight issue.
Tom Smith
Molly Malone
1994 Mark 1.5
Tom Smith
Molly Malone
1994 Mk 1.5
Std rig/wing keel
I have been thinking about that hatch for a while now I like that it is heavily tinted and gives the V berth more light, ,my biggiest fear is that once I drill it I own it. And from the reveiws above what is the overall approval of it, and how well it seals.
Nothing I hate more than sailing to weather most of the day, and shipping water over the bow, and when I finally arrive in a harbor, and turn in for the night I have a soaking wet V-berth due to the hatch not sealing.
FAIR WINDS & FOLLOWING SEAS
Jeff Costa
S/V KAIROS Hull #0235
[QUOTE=jsc4484;8670]I have been thinking about that hatch for a while now I like that it is heavily tinted and gives the V berth more light, my biggiest fear is that once I drill it I own it. And from the reveiws above what is the overall approval of it, and how well it seals.
Nothing I hate more than sailing to weather most of the day, and shipping water over the bow, and when I finally arrive in a harbor, and turn in for the night I have a soaking wet V-berth due to the hatch not sealing.[/QUOTE]
As the initial poster of this thread, I should report back on our decision, which was greatly aided by the responses on this thread (both pro and con). In the end, we decided to go ahead with the project. I can report that after lots of torrential rain this spring while [I]Que Chévere[/I] was still in the yard, and taking a fair amount of water over the bow this past weekend during out maiden voyage slogging 90 miles from NYC out to the east end of Long Island, we didn't get a drop of water through the hatch (I wish I could say the same for one of the {allegedly] sealed portlights!). And the added light is very nice.
A bit of a hindsight recommendation here. I replaced the existing gasket (Catalina Direct sells it by the foot), as the old one had absolutely no "give" in it anymore. However, I only realized that it needed to be replaced to get a good seal [I]after[/I] I'd already installed the hatch. The thickness of gasket somewhat affects the placement of the hardware on the hatch, so I would strongly recommend anyone doing this upgrade to replace the gasket [I]first[/I], before dry fitting the new hatch (had I done I think I would have got a slightly better fit overall). (I should, in fairness, mention that the instructions had recommended doing this, but I somehow managed to violate the important rule of RTFM ["[I]Read the Friendly Manual[/I]" -- or whatever adjective you choose] first).
As Al of [I]Last Resort[/I] reported in an earlier post, you do end up having to tighten the dogs down hard to get the forward end to curve over the crown (I'm thinking vaguely of attempting to gently reshape it a little in an oven next winter to eliminate this issue), but other than that its really no problem thus far.
Matthew Chachère
s/v ¡Que Chévere!
(Formerly 1985 C36 MKI #466 tall rig fin keel M25)
2006 Catalina Morgan 440 #30.
Homeported in eastern Long Island, NY
Thanks Matt
Looks like I will order one. That was my greatiest concern that the shape of the hatch would not seal, I am going to order it and install it this fall, once her cover is on for the winter. We already sailing for the season, so it will be a good winter project.
FAIR WINDS & FOLLOWING SEAS
Jeff Costa
S/V KAIROS Hull #0235
I bought an acrylic hatch from Cruising Concepts for my 34. It fit perfectly, didn't leak, and was an awesome addition! We loved the light that it let in. It totally changed the karma of our boat. Yes, light does come in in the morning, but at least you wake not feeling you are in a tomb! Go for it!
Rich
Richard & Joan Bain
PAZZO Hull#1670
1997 Catalina 36 MK11
Bayfield, Ontario
My Day Job Below
www.richardbain.com
www.bineapress.com
[QUOTE=Chachere;8703]As the initial poster of this thread, I should report back on our decision, which was greatly aided by the responses on this thread (both pro and con). In the end, we decided to go ahead with the project. . . .
you do end up having to tighten the dogs down hard to get the forward end to curve over the crown (I'm thinking vaguely of attempting to gently reshape it a little in an oven next winter to eliminate this issue), but other than that its really no problem thus far.[/QUOTE]
Now that the hatch has been in place for a few months, I'm pleased to report that it appears to have taken on the curve over the crown on the forward end on its own (without the need for me to reshape it in an oven). Don't know if the acrylic takes the shape over time just because of being pressed into shape while dogged down, or the effect of it sitting in the summer sun, but it fits better now. Still needs to be snugged a bit hard, but nothing like when I first installed!
Matthew Chachère
s/v ¡Que Chévere!
(Formerly 1985 C36 MKI #466 tall rig fin keel M25)
2006 Catalina Morgan 440 #30.
Homeported in eastern Long Island, NY
Have you had any "issues" slipping on it while up on deck Just curious from an earlier mention of this.
Stu Jackson, C34IA Secretary, C34 #224, 1986, SR/FK, M25 engine, Rocna 10 (22#)
[QUOTE=stu jackson c34;9146]Have you had any "issues" slipping on it while up on deck Just curious from an earlier mention of this.[/QUOTE]
I haven't had that problem. On the other hand, I'm wary of stepping on it anyway, as I would any glazed hatch, to avoid scratching it, and I had also read the prior posts mentioning the "slippery slope" issue, so that's another reason why I and others on our boat haven't stepped on it. Anyway, compared to our prior Catalina 27, there seems to be so many acres of deck space that it doesn't seem too hard to avoid stepping on it (but then, I'm sure it will happen at some point, knowing my own clumsiness).
Matthew Chachère
s/v ¡Que Chévere!
(Formerly 1985 C36 MKI #466 tall rig fin keel M25)
2006 Catalina Morgan 440 #30.
Homeported in eastern Long Island, NY
[QUOTE=Chachere;9119]Now that the hatch has been in place for a few months, I'm pleased to report that it appears to have taken on the curve over the crown on the forward end on its own (without the need for me to reshape it in an oven). Don't know if the acrylic takes the shape over time just because of being pressed into shape while dogged down, or the effect of it sitting in the summer sun, but it fits better now. Still needs to be snugged a bit hard, but nothing like when I first installed![/QUOTE]
Further update: During our recent 3 week cruise in New England, twice we had some leakage issues. The first came as we exited the Cape Cod Canal running with a 5 knot current running to the SW that collided smack dab into opposing waves at the far end of Buzzard's Bay coming up from the SW (a not uncommon experience at that location, but a new one for us), which caused quite the bumpy ride for 1/2 an hour and a lot of green water over the bow. One of the dumb little plastic knurled knobs that come with the OEM hatch dogs got stripped and we could no longer dog it down so tight, so we took in a good deal of water (replaced later that night with a wing nut for now).
A week later, bashing upwind through 6' - 8' seas on the Atlantic between Martha's Vinyard and Block Island, the hatch leaked a tad, even though dogged down tight. Not very badly, but still regrettable.
Over the off-season, I'm thinking of maybe adding an additional gasket on the underside of the hatch, and maybe trying to fabricate a lip of some material on the outer edge of the underside (as the original hatch had). Maybe better hatch dogs as well.
Still, its very nice having the clear hatch -- the lighting improvement is impressive. But if I was ever making a longer blue water passage, I'd revert to the old hatch (which I saved).
Matthew Chachère
s/v ¡Que Chévere!
(Formerly 1985 C36 MKI #466 tall rig fin keel M25)
2006 Catalina Morgan 440 #30.
Homeported in eastern Long Island, NY
I bit of duct tape on the days when you think this will be a problem would probably be an easy solution too? Ugly though.
Jason V
Vancouver, BC, Canada
[QUOTE=Nimue;9889]I bit of duct tape on the days when you think this will be a problem would probably be an easy solution too? Ugly though.[/QUOTE]
Tue enough, Nimue.
Duct tape, hose clamps, and Vaseline have always been my 3 most essential emergency repair kit items in most endeavors -- sailing or otherwise. Tape it, clamp it, or lube it, its gotta work somehow!
Matthew Chachère
s/v ¡Que Chévere!
(Formerly 1985 C36 MKI #466 tall rig fin keel M25)
2006 Catalina Morgan 440 #30.
Homeported in eastern Long Island, NY
[QUOTE=Chachere;9887]Further update: During our recent 3 week cruise in New England, twice we had some leakage issues. The first came as we exited the Cape Cod Canal running with a 5 knot current running to the SW that collided smack dab into opposing waves at the far end of Buzzard's Bay coming up from the SW (a not uncommon experience at that location, but a new one for us), which caused quite the bumpy ride for 1/2 an hour and a lot of green water over the bow. One of the dumb little plastic knurled knobs that come with the OEM hatch dogs got stripped and we could no longer dog it down so tight, so we took in a good deal of water (replaced later that night with a wing nut for now).
A week later, bashing upwind through 6' - 8' seas on the Atlantic between Martha's Vinyard and Block Island, the hatch leaked a tad, even though dogged down tight. Not very badly, but still regrettable.
Over the off-season, I'm thinking of maybe adding an additional gasket on the underside of the hatch, and maybe trying to fabricate a lip of some material on the outer edge of the underside (as the original hatch had). Maybe better hatch dogs as well.
Still, its very nice having the clear hatch -- the lighting improvement is impressive. But if I was ever making a longer blue water passage, I'd revert to the old hatch (which I saved).[/QUOTE]
Updating:
During the off-season, I added two layers of stick-on gasketing material to the underside of the outer edge of the hatch. When the hatch is closed this added gasket doesn't actually press on anything, but rather creates a lip outboard of the existing gasket, so that there are essentially interlocking gaskets (I was trying to replicate the projecting lip that the original fibreglass hatch had). I also replaced the stripped plastic knurled knobs that come with the OEM hatch dogs with larger ones available from Catalina Direct -- much easier on the hands and they help crank the hatch down good and tight.
Thus far, we seem to have affected a cure -- not a drop has gotten into the V-berth even when taking a fair amount of green water over the bow.
I'll try to post a pic at some point of the added gasketing.
Final verdict: this was an excellent improvement to our boat. Last week, hile we temporarily had the dingy stored over it during an ocean passage, my wife remarked that she was astounded how dark and cave-like it rendered the forward cabin, after being used to all that light. And while, after reading earlier comments warning that the surfeit of sunlight might makee it difficult to sleep late, we ordered a canvas cover along with the hatch, but in 2 seasons we've never used it.
Another benefit I've noticed is the ability to do a quick eyeball of what's ahead of us while underway on autopilot, if we've ducked below for a few minutes to make a sandwich, grab a beer, use the "facilities", etc.
Matthew Chachère
s/v ¡Que Chévere!
(Formerly 1985 C36 MKI #466 tall rig fin keel M25)
2006 Catalina Morgan 440 #30.
Homeported in eastern Long Island, NY