I recently had electrical work done on the boat, new batteries a new inverter and a Balmar duo charger. The quote from the electrician was looked over and prices checked. We agreed on the quote, a deposit was make and work was scheduled. All went well, work was completed last week and final bill was presented. The final total was about $250 above the quoted price due to sales tax and freight.
My contention is that these costs should have been reflected in the quote, the contractor said I was the first person to complain about this in 20 years of service.
I would like any inputs. Is a quote a contract with all known costs included or can other costs be added after work is completed. I will pay the higher bill but I wonder if there is a standard practice in the marine industry that I missed.
Going Coastal C36 MkII
2002 Hull 2070
M 35B Manson Supreme
East Coast, Florida
Technically, a quote should a contractual obligation to do the work at that price. That said, I'd probably cut a break because freight and tax should have been included. Your contractor should realize that his mistake to not include those costs could cost him credibility.
Paul & Wendy Keyser
"First Light"
Rye NH
2005 C36 MKII #2257
Wing, M35B
Any technician who gives a hard & fast "quote" for marine electrical work is smoking something I want. (wink)
When I "quote" I give a range of hours @ XX.XX per hour then a "plus materials". I bill my materials at West Marine catalog price. I won't and don't itemize a quote line by line because it is fools work.
If they are quoting you with labor and materials before the work has been done you are usually not getting a good deal. Corroded terminals, frozen screws, hidden issues that simply can't be seen until the system has been torn down, bad wire that can't be re-terminated and many other little details creep in when you physically dig into the system. Even something as simple as a battery monitor, normally a 2 hour job, can entail upwards of 15 hours of labor on some boats due to access issues.
Sometimes local vendors run out of stock and it has to be mail ordered, and shipping is not free. Taxes, we all know they are there....
The only customer I ever had complain was a guy whom I quoted an 880Ah bank of Lifeline batteries to. I told him in August the quote was good for 30 days. He ordered the batteries the next spring. I drove 35 minutes to get them, matched batteries based on internal resistance using my analyzer, brought them home and physically capacity tested them, then delivered them to his boat. You will not find ANY marine electrician that does that anywhere!! All I made was a measly markup on the batteries. I did not bill for time..
The battery pricing had gone up by 7%, he threw a fit. I sent him a nice note letting him know all I did that he was not even charged for, such as pick up, delivery, impedance matching and a capacity test to confirm capacity plus delivery. I also sent him a copy of the email where I clearly noted the pricing was good for 30 days. He paid the bill and I refused to ever do work for him again. Now he is paying boat yards way more than what I charge... On top of that the boatyard has called me in as an outside consultant/contractor and billed him $125.00 for my work, which is way more than I charge him.. I would rather let them pay me and have them collect from the PITA customer... (wink)
My point? If the guy is good, and you like him, don't burn your bridge. Most good independent marine electricians have more work than they can physically handle and they don't need hassles over shipping and taxes which are real costs..
Remember marine techs don't bill on flat-rate like a car dealer where they get paid $135.00/hr for 4 hours of "book" labor for a job that takes 30 minutes for the fast tech. We work 4 hours and get paid for 4 hours...
Just my .02 from the other side of the equation...
-Maine Sail
https://www.marinehowto.com/
Thank you both for your comments. I was given a line by line quote so I assumed it was all inclusive. I don't understand why he did not put a disclaimer on the quote that other costs may be added. I am not trying to beat the guy up but I feel it was dishonest on his part. The check is in the mail.
By the way the new Victron Multuplus inverter/charger seems like a nice piece of equipment.
Going Coastal C36 MkII
2002 Hull 2070
M 35B Manson Supreme
East Coast, Florida
I couldn't agree with Main Sail more! I never look for a hard Quote. I ask for a budget number. I wish a guy or shop like Mail Sail was in my area.
All that being said if a guy quotes a cost for a Part, I would think he would include the shipping and tax.
Being a "boat" labor costs should be on what it takes to do the job right. I only hope a guy would be honest.
Chuck Lennox
97 MKii Ventura Ca
Island Girl Hull #1611
Anyone that has been in a service business for 20 years and never had a customer question a charge should be getting a letter from the Vatican. Myself being in the electronic field service industry for 20 years, there's a difference between a quote for fixed price, time and material, not to exceed, best effort, etc vs. significant charges appearing on the final bill that were not provisioned for in some way either before the service started or negotiated during the service.
Where non-in-stock items might be necessary, the usual practice is to indicate that these items will be acquired "FOB-source" in order to itemize and recover shipping costs. On a time and material job, the term "portal-to-portal" is used to convey that a customer will pay for travel time to and from the work site. Whenever a fixed price or a not-to-exceed price is facing an overrun, it's the duty of the provider to consult with customer on how to proceed.
Perhaps not appropriate for this instance, but if you feel compelled to contest any bill, the usual practice is to pay the bill and at the same time notify (in writing) the provider that you are dissatisfied with the charges and will seek legal mediation.
Nick Caballero
Retired C36/375IA Mk II Technical Editor
Re: flat rate vs actual time to complete a task. From my brief stint in the automotive transmission business in the 70s, it was explained to me, that 'flat rate' time was the time it would take to complete a task without power tools. Since no one actually does this, that didn't make much sense to me. The explanation was that flat rate allowed for the cost of those tools; the lifts, compressors, special tools, rent, heat, etc. There is a certain amount of sense to that argument, however, the auto mechanics I use bill me a lower hourly rate than a dealer AND charge me for the actual amount of time it took them to do the work. I'm sure their engine analyzer wasn't free. And of course, Mainsail also has to pay for all of HIS tools, doesn't he?
So that 'flat rate' argument still doesn't make sense to me. what it should say is that it allows the auto dealership to make money servicing cars. And anyone who has ever done any work on their boats knows that they will ALWAYS encounter something unexpected that results in profuse swearing, trips to the marine store, and more profuse swearing. The phrase 'swear like a sailor' came from somewhere, right :-)
Gary and Cathy Price
1997 C36 Mk II Tall Rig/Wing Keel Imagine...
Hull # 1617
Worton Creek, Md.
Northern Chesapeake Bay
On a time and material job is the boat owner allowed to supply the materials. If an owner buys a electronics package at a boat show price will he be able to find a reputable contractor to install it. Thanks for any comments.
Going Coastal C36 MkII
2002 Hull 2070
M 35B Manson Supreme
East Coast, Florida
An installers perspective:
Most installers will not and IMHO should not stand behind equipment they did not source or provide. There are far to many illegitimate sources out there of refurb, gray market, non-authorized dealers etc., for any installer to do so. They may choose to install it but warranty etc. is usually on the owner who supplied the product. There is a difference between paying an installer for straight labor and a complete system they can and will stand behind.
This happened just last winter/spring. Owner insisted on supplying all instruments, 12k worth, and asked me to install them, which I reluctantly agreed to. (he saved $360.00 over my quote on approx 12k worth of product or about 3%) I also let him know in writing, on the quote, that I was installation labor only and warranty & warranty labor was on him. He also lost extended factory support by not using a factory trained installer.
I spent considerable time designing the system, part of the labor, and gave him an itemized list of all components needed and every single manufacturers part number. He spent nearly $100.00 in shipping returned items because he still ordered incorrect parts, cables etc.. (he's a die hard eBay guy) He also paid me for two hours of my time to drive an hour each way only to find out he'd ordered the wrong equipment, not the parts I specifically told him he needed, in writing.. His $360.00 in savings was nearly gone already.
When it came time to install the new radar he did not want to pay the extra yard fee, for me to go to where his mast was stored, and do the physical work. (this yard tacks an extra 10% onto my labor as an outside contractor) In order to save $6.50 per hour, he had the yards riggers install the radome and run the wires down the spar. It was SLOPPY work that potentially resulted in MAJOR expenses.
Long and short was he had to pay me an additional 4 hours for trouble shooting, pinning out every single cable in the system, swapping plotters to test for a dead network bus, only to find out that the radar cable was bad which then necessitated dropping the spar AGAIN.. Long story short was he would have paid about $1400.00 less if I had just done the whole job and he would have had additional warranty time. Instead, he paid me substantially more than the original quote plus had a huge yard bill for the second mast step re-step....
The key take away is that sometimes the money you save by sourcing the equipment yourself comes back in a bad way. This is most often true with electronics.
I have had my share of electronics fail that I sourced and installed and I have stood behind them, sometimes at considerable expense. I have had nightmare installs where I have lost four figures because a manufacturers product is so bad. But if I sourced it, sold it and installed it I stand behind it, part of the business.. This is why there are some products I now will no longer install, due to reliability.
-Maine Sail
https://www.marinehowto.com/
Soulds like to me that he is trying to take advantage of you. I would absolutely NOT pay it!!
Glenn Druhot
Carpe Diem
New Bern, NC
35* 6' 10" N / 77* 2' 30" W
2001 C36, Hull #1965
Std Rig; Wing Keel; M35B
On freight I would be annoyed. On tax I'm less sympathetic -- part of learning to read a quote is that if tax isn't included, you should expect it to be added.
Most states require tax to be broken out as a separate line item unless the quote notes, in writing, that tax at such-and-such a rate is included in all prices (the rate must be specified). This is an anti-fraud measure. So if you don't see a tax line item, you know it isn't included.
David
s/v Portmanteau
Hull #2133 -- 2003 MKII
Seattle, WA