fin keel vs shoal draft

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jimd
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fin keel vs shoal draft

I am looking to buy a catalina 36. I wanted a fin keel but really like a boat that has a shoal draft. will I be disapointed with it. I intend on coastal cruising as well as bay sailing. Any advise would be appreciated.

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rubyblu
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I just purchased a 1995 Catalina 36 MKII with a Wing Keel. I originally wanted a Fin Keel, but fell in love with the boat and bought it. They both have their advantages, but I do not believe you will be disappointed with a Schoal Keel. One thing I will tell you is that Catalina made the 36 with a Schoal Keel, but a rudder that is about 1 foot longer than the keel. I found out about this the easy way as when I was doing a seatrial on the boat the previous owner went over a rock and it hit the Rudder and Bent the Steel shaft causing us to loose steering. He replaced it before I bought the boat, but we replaced it with a 2007 Rudder that is about 8 inches wider, but even with the Keel...

Keep this in mind.....

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deising
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Jim,

We have a 1999 shoal draft keel because to have the full fin keel would GREATLY impact out ability to use the boat in the very skinny waters around here (and much of FL and the Bahamas, I might add.) We recognize some loss in pointing ability and the extra weight, but it was a no-brainer choice for us.

I know there are sailors with deep-draft keels who "can" sail here and the Bahamas, but I have sailed in company with a few of them and they are much more limited than they will admit.

I was going to refute Ruby's comments about the rudder length being deeper than the keel until I read the whole post. When level on blocks, our rudder is about 2 inches shallower than the keel, which is too close for any comfort, but to shorten the rudder much further would leave the boat unmanageable when heeled in a stiff breeze.

What was that about boats being compromises?

Duane Ising - Past Commodore (2011-2012)
s/v Diva Di
1999 Catalina 36 Hull #1777
Std rig; wing keel, M35B, Delta (45#)
Punta Gorda, FL
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/diva-di/

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rubyblu
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Attached are two images of a 1995 Catalina MKII Rudder.

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deising
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Wow, even with the photo perspective making an accurate determination impossible, it sure looks like the one rudder is much deeper than the keel.

Like I said, Ruby, I was 'going' to refute your statement until I read how Catalina switched to a shorter rudder after an obvious initial mistake.

Thanks for posting those pics.

Duane Ising - Past Commodore (2011-2012)
s/v Diva Di
1999 Catalina 36 Hull #1777
Std rig; wing keel, M35B, Delta (45#)
Punta Gorda, FL
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/diva-di/

jimd
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I failed to mention that the boat I am concidering is a mid 80's model. does that make any difference.

StillaThrill
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Here's a profile shot of my 1987 shoal draft keel and original rudder. It looks like the keel and the rudder are about the same depth.

Ralph
Still a Thrill # 765
WK, STD Rig
Lake Texoma, TX

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deising
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Jim,

I guess the only safe way is to ask the question of the seller/broker and be sure that they understand the answer needs to be accurate or it is a deal breaker. My opinion is that having the rudder longer than the keel is just asking for trouble.

Duane Ising - Past Commodore (2011-2012)
s/v Diva Di
1999 Catalina 36 Hull #1777
Std rig; wing keel, M35B, Delta (45#)
Punta Gorda, FL
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/diva-di/

Gunkholer 1889
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Posts: 25

Could the keels have been switched? I had an 1989C27 and a 1992 C30 and they were both like my wing 2000C36. Gerry Douglas says its 2inches shorter

Chris Hansen
Lake Michigan

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LCBrandt
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jimd, once again, a member of the forum (you) has asked an excellent question - and the interest of a lot of us is peaked - but we don't have enough information to craft a thorough answer. "Coastal cruising and bay sailing" isn't definitive...you could be talking about Tampa Bay and the east coast of Florida, or the coast of Washington State and San Francisco Bay. These would elicit two radically different opinion sets. While the responding posts have all been from shoal draft owners, it would seem the assumption is that you're on the east coast. Is that so??? Your profile is silent on this, and I can find no other info about you.

Please provide a little more data about yourself, such as Where you intend to base the boat and Where you intend to sail. Also, do you intend to race? These are important background data that enable us to answer your question authoritatively.

Note to all forum users...it would be really helpful for all of us, and for you, if you offered a bit more info about yourelves. Hell, we're not trying to sell you anything...just trying to help.

Larry Brandt
S/V High Flight #2109
Pacific Northwest, PDX-based
2002 C-36 mkII SR/FK M35B
 

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stu jackson c34
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jimd, Larry's quite correct in his suggestions. In addition to the moderator's suggestions here to post enough information about you, your boat and your conditions and situations, I ran across this link as one of the best I've ever seen on how to help us help you (we all have the same kinda issues on all Message Boards): [url]http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=101369[/url]

Stu Jackson, C34IA Secretary, C34 #224, 1986, SR/FK, M25 engine, Rocna 10 (22#)

hilbre
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Posts: 218

It is all a matter of preference and to some extent sailing conditions plus what you will do, cruise or race. Certainly the fin keel will point better but when I was shopping for Hilbre, I made the decision early on to buy a wing keel even though I could have used a fin. There is plenty of deep water on the West Coast and in Lake Mead.
There were hardly any wing keels in the West so I finished up buying Hilbre in the Gulf and shipping her back to Lake Mead. I do race once in a while and sometime view with envy other boats pointing ability but as I love to cruise more than race I am very happy with my decision.
Remember, no one will agree on the perfect boat, eveyone has a preference, it's all a matter of your lifestyle and the decision you make. Wing or fin, the C36 is a great boat to own.
John Meyer
Hilbre 2135 on Lake Mead, soon to join those Fleet 2 boats and their fin keels in Long Beach.

John Meyer
Hilbre
C36 MKll, Hull 2135

Cabrillo Marina, San Pedro, CA

jimd
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sorry guys for taking so long to respond. the boat will be morred in charleston sc. i intend to sail here as well as the east coast, florida, and points south. i will strickly cruise no racing. i am more concerned with seakindliness and pointing. although i like the added benifit of a shallow draft in this area im concered the shoal keel will exaggerate rolling motion in a seaway. i hope this helps you help me.

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bcam
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I have a wing keel with a rudder that is shallower than the keel. One of the pictures posted above has the semi-elliptical rudder that came later than '95. I don't believe that they were offered as stock on the wing keel boats.

My boat was originally sold to a man in Bellingham WA. Why he chose the wing keel, I have no idea. The water in the PNW is usually more than deep enough. I sail as crew on a Nelson Marek 68' that draws over 12'. We don't have a problem with depth.

If anyone has a deep keel that they want to trade for a wing, let me know. I wouyld love the better pointing ability and the ability to add the deeper, elliptical rudder.

Bruce Campbell
Evergreen Dreams #1409

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deising
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jimd,

With your stated cruising grounds and sailing style (cruising), I would heartily recommend the shoal draft wing keel. I read blogs every day from sailors with 5.5 ft+ draft boats cruising between Fl and the Carolinas who are bumping bottom, getting stuck, and having to time the tides to use the ICW.

Duane Ising - Past Commodore (2011-2012)
s/v Diva Di
1999 Catalina 36 Hull #1777
Std rig; wing keel, M35B, Delta (45#)
Punta Gorda, FL
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/diva-di/

merrja
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Jim,

I have a cat 36 w/ a fin keel that I keep in Charleston and sailed to Florida (offshore not in the CW) in December. I have never run into any issues with the extra 12", but I have never taken the boat to the Bahammas.

Regards,
Jim

shulme801
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RubyBlu -- your boats' rudder and keel config looks exactly like the 1995 C 36 MK II (Hull 1467) that I have had sea trialed and surveyed yesterday. What did you end up doing about this -- that rudder is definitely longer than the keel! I'm going to use the boat for cruising in the Albemarle/Pamlico sound area in North Carolina, so really prefer shoal draft. However, I do not think a rudder that's 10-12 inches longer than the keel is a good idea!

Steve Hulme
S/V Coy Mistress #1467
North Carolina
1995 C 36 MKII TR/WK

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Undine
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When we hauled out my 1988 wing keel a few years ago, a helper and I used a carpenter's level and tape measure to check relative depths of the keel and rudder. The comparison was in reference to the waterline as Undine normally floats, so how your gear is stored could affect the depths. The process was rather approximate, but seemed to show the rudder to be around 6" deeper than the keel. With this in mind, I was not surprised when, on our recent trip south from Maine to Florida, we anchored for a while in a shallow bit of the ICW, using only our rudder. As the tide rose, we gradually got under way, plowing a furrow, and the keel never touched.
Knowing about this keeps us a bit higher on our toes that we might otherwise be.
Neil Woodside
Undine '88 WK/SR #863

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deising
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At some point, Catalina started using rudders that were a couple of inches (by my measurement) shallower than the keel.

I can't imagine the stress of sailing a boat with a rudder sticking down below the keel, to be candid.

Duane Ising - Past Commodore (2011-2012)
s/v Diva Di
1999 Catalina 36 Hull #1777
Std rig; wing keel, M35B, Delta (45#)
Punta Gorda, FL
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/diva-di/

BudStreet
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Posts: 1127

A "knowledgeable sailor", who had never owned a Catalina 36 or any Catalina for that matter, told us this about our 36 when we got it, said we would rue the day, big mistake, you'll be stuck all the time, etc., etc. So I did as careful a check as possible and our rudder seems to be at the same depth as the keel, near as I can tell. I can't see any sign of it having been modified. So I wonder why some are deeper and some are not? Seems odd, as does the conventional wisdom of some "knowledgeable sailors".

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GaryB
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Good point Larry! When sailing the Maine Coast it becomes pretty critical where your true draft lies, as there is a good amount of stone/ledge that gets in the way. This problem with the rudder shows up pretty fast here in Maine. Two catalina 36's with wing keels have shown up on the bank in East Boothbay with their rudder bent and partially pulled out because of the difference. I have one friend with a 34 who worries a good deal about this so he is dilligent about the depth he travels. I have another friend with a 38 and he bent his rudder going in the backway to Burnt Coat Harbor. He has gone with a new rudder but had it shortened. Note that there is an offering of a shorter version so it must be a reality.
As to the fin keel that also can ground and if you are lucky it is only a dent in the lead, sometimes leads to the infamous catalina smile at the joint! As my old friend and sailing mentor states "You ain't been around if you have not been aground!":(:rolleyes::o

Gary Bain
S/V "Gone With The Wind"
Catalina 36', Hull #: 1056, Year: 1990, Engine: M-35
Standard Rig
Moored: Boothbay Harbor, Maine
Home: Auburn, Maine

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GaryB
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Just realized how old this post was, still a good question.

Gary Bain
S/V "Gone With The Wind"
Catalina 36', Hull #: 1056, Year: 1990, Engine: M-35
Standard Rig
Moored: Boothbay Harbor, Maine
Home: Auburn, Maine

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deising
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Hey, Gary. Now that you are an officer, you might want to add that to your signature line!

As for the rudder being deeper than the keel, I still cannot fathom (pun intended) what someone was thinking. Make a shorter keel to give you a shoal draft, but leave the rudder long. It is, frankly, mind-boggling.

Duane Ising - Past Commodore (2011-2012)
s/v Diva Di
1999 Catalina 36 Hull #1777
Std rig; wing keel, M35B, Delta (45#)
Punta Gorda, FL
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/diva-di/

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SailorJackson
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The last message in this recent thread should shed some light on it [URL="http://www.c36ia.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1686"]keel/rudder[/URL]

But he doesn't say when that design changed.

Greg Jackson
SV Jacqui Marie
2004 C36, MKII
tall rig, wing keel,

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GaryB
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[QUOTE=deising;15911]Hey, Gary. Now that you are an officer, you might want to add that to your signature line!

As for the rudder being deeper than the keel, I still cannot fathom (pun intended) what someone was thinking. Make a shorter keel to give you a shoal draft, but leave the rudder long. It is, frankly, mind-boggling.[/QUOTE]

Made the change, note someone needs to change the renew/join app on the website. Have a Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night!

Gary Bain
S/V "Gone With The Wind"
Catalina 36', Hull #: 1056, Year: 1990, Engine: M-35
Standard Rig
Moored: Boothbay Harbor, Maine
Home: Auburn, Maine

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deising
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Thanks for the heads-up, Gary. I reported to our new webmaster.

Duane Ising - Past Commodore (2011-2012)
s/v Diva Di
1999 Catalina 36 Hull #1777
Std rig; wing keel, M35B, Delta (45#)
Punta Gorda, FL
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/diva-di/

jmontani
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Posts: 143

Ran into the same issue with my previous Catalina (1989 30' Tall Rig/ Wing) where the rudder was close to the same draft as the keel.

Called Catalina a while back about the 36 draft and asked the same questions as stated and received the standard "2 inch" difference between the draft of the rudder vs. the keel.

The reality on my boat is with all the stuff in the "garage" (AKA Aft Cabin), Refer Loaded, and tanks full...all the stuff aft of the keel, the "2 inch clearance" is meaningless in my view. Not to mention putting 2 - 4 people in the cockpit will cause the boat will ride lower in the stern.

In my view, Wing or Fin, the rudder (without modification) will hit in a grounding.

Being in a deep water sailing area I have some comfort knowing that this shouldn't be an issue outside of poor decision making vs. the type of cruising ground I am in.

Potential help for newbies..
[U]When I bought the boat and went through an electronics change out I recalibrated the depth meter and added a 7 foot offset so the boat should have a few feet of water under the keel when it reads "0.00" (in theory). I also use a shallow alarm on top of the offset. [/U][U] I highly recommend taking a few moments to set this up if your depth meter has this capability.[/U]

Along with Gary's quote..."Two types of sailors, those that have been aground and those that lie about it." (I have hit the Earth before though not in the 36.)

Just my thoughts...

Jack
Solstice
Hull #1598
1996 MKII/TR/FK - M35AC - 3 Blade MaxProp
Lake Texoma

www.texomasailing.org

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deising
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And there is another quote: "shoal draft boats just run aground in shallower water."

Duane Ising - Past Commodore (2011-2012)
s/v Diva Di
1999 Catalina 36 Hull #1777
Std rig; wing keel, M35B, Delta (45#)
Punta Gorda, FL
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/diva-di/

jmontani
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Thats right Duane. I was thinking the same thing.

Jack
Solstice
Hull #1598
1996 MKII/TR/FK - M35AC - 3 Blade MaxProp
Lake Texoma

www.texomasailing.org

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Donwinchell
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not
Not the best picture of a boat, but it does show the keel and rudder. I will measure next time i am outt to the yard.  1990 mk1 Northern Symphony - near Chester Nova Scotia. That's in Canada, eh.

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Haro
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Even in San Francisco Bay I have to "watch it" so that I do not run aground. I enter and leave the marina channel at +2 ft tide to be sure. I have to avoid entering other marinas at zero tide.
I selected fin keel - yes it does point better.
The other difference with wing keel is that wing keel is tender compared to a find keel.
 

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Donwinchell
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I expect jimd has already made a decision, but for future reference i will reply. As usual, it depends what you want out of a boat. I don't race so "performance" may have a different meaning for me than for someone else, but i totally love my 1990 c36 tall rig wing keel . She points higher than any previous boat I've owned, turns on a dime under power and i find the extra foot of bottom clearance meaningful where I sail in Nova Scotia.  I don't know about the mathematics but I expect, just guessing, that if someone has to ask the question (will it make a performance difference) then the answer would be "for you, no" I don't mean this rudely, simply that the boat sails well, very well. Both in light air and in a fresh wind or  better. If one is a high performance racer already then you know that ANY little thing will make some small difference and each small difference adds up. No, she is not a thoroughbred racing boat, as i have seen many of then in the water and out of the water. But if you want a good, or maybe great all-round boat i don't think you will be disappointed with a c36 wing keel boat. Hope this helps someone's thinking process.

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