Thanks for posting these. I have aspirations of long distance sailing as well and have always thought any self steering option had to be mechanical and not electrical. These look like a great option.

Bill,

One of our C36 discussion group members, Wind Star, has cruised from New Zealand to Tonga and other destinations during the past couple of years.

If I understand New Zealand regulations, what makes this notable is that a New Zealand registered yacht must have a Yachting New Zealand issued Category 1 safety certificate before it is permitted make an offshore passage. The requirements are not trivial.

Take a read, follow this link, then under Technical menu / Safety Regulations, scroll down the new page to "The YNZ Safety Regulations of Sailing 2009-2012 " and open the PDF file (couldn't make a direct link but it's worth the effort) :

[URL]http://www.yachtingnz.org.nz/Home.aspx[/URL](link is external)

If you're looking for authoritative validation that the C36 is blue water capable, I think this is it.

Here's Rob Kyles blog which makes interesting reading:
[URL]http://windstar.jimdo.com/[/URL](link is external)

Cheers,
Graham

Hello fellow Catalina 36 lovers

Not trying to rain on anybody's parade, but thought I'd toss in my 2 cents.

I'm no offshore expert, but have been from Puget Sound to Hawaii and back on a friend's 43 foot steel cutter. On the return we were caught in a storm for 36 hours with 50 kt plus winds and 20 foot seas with breaking waves. Were able to claw 4 kts to windward under triple-reefed main and storm jib on the inner forestay. Was very relieved not to have my Catalina 36 out in those conditions.

Lacking a skeg-hung rudder, anybody's definition of sea berths, easily negotiated below decks configuration in a seaway and beefier chainplate attachments than Butler & Co employs, I'd keep my boat in the "coastal cruising" category it was designed for - and does an exceptional job doing.

It's not that I don't like Catalina's. Quite the contrary - I've had five of them. I just don't consider them to be offshore boats. Anyone taking them out of sight of land might be well advised to carefully consider weather windows and places they might duck into if things turn to worms. Bumming around the South Pacific, the Med or Caribbean with passages limited to a couple days, and help within earshot, might be okay. I wouldn't recommend a 3-week stint in the North Pacific, a trans Atlantic crossing or (God forbid!) either of the Capes.

Catalinas of various sizes have circumnavigated and routinely gone to Hawaii, but so has a Cal 20. You wouldn't find me aboard either. I'm old, and my need for thrills and accomplishments are well behind me. Maybe that taints my judgement.

For those taking their Catalina 36s offshore - I wish them and their boats the very best. They will probably be fine. IMHO, I think there are boats much better suited to the task.

Grandma Jack

Hi Jack, you make some important points similar to some Bill has heard elsewhere on this forum too. Just to clarify, though:

[QUOTE=jackheaston;12388]Hello fellow Catalina 36 lovers
...
I'm no offshore expert, but have been from Puget Sound to Hawaii and back on a friend's 43 foot steel cutter. On the return we were caught in a storm for 36 hours with 50 kt plus winds and 20 foot seas with breaking waves. Were able to claw 4 kts to windward under triple-reefed main and storm jib on the inner forestay. Was very relieved not to have my Catalina 36 out in those conditions.
[/QUOTE]
Why sail to windward in 50 knots? Were you on a lee shore? Anything over about 35 knots forward of the beam would be heave-to territory for us in our Catalina ;) Much worse and our drogue makes an appearance...

[QUOTE=jackheaston;12388]
Lacking a skeg-hung rudder, anybody's definition of sea berths, easily negotiated below decks configuration in a seaway and beefier chainplate attachments than Butler & Co employs, I'd keep my boat in the "coastal cruising" category it was designed for - and does an exceptional job doing.
[/QUOTE]
The rudder is a bit of a concern, but lee cloths work well, we have a rope 'handrail' from the galley to the mast, and if you [I]shorten sail[/I] the chainplates don't work any harder than full sail in a moderate breeze.
[QUOTE=jackheaston;12388]
It's not that I don't like Catalina's. Quite the contrary - I've had five of them. I just don't consider them to be offshore boats. Anyone taking them out of sight of land might be well advised to carefully consider weather windows and places they might duck into if things turn to worms.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, 'weather windows' get talked about [I]a lot[/I]... impatience can bite you on the bum. Out of sight of land [I]there are no places[/I] to duck into, you are on your own...
[QUOTE=jackheaston;12388]
Bumming around the South Pacific, the Med or Caribbean with passages limited to a couple days, and help within earshot, might be okay.
[/QUOTE]
It [I]IS OK[/I]! Apparently this is what Bill is contemplating ;)
[QUOTE=jackheaston;12388]
I wouldn't recommend a 3-week stint in the North Pacific, a trans Atlantic crossing or (God forbid!) either of the Capes.
[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure we are all agreed on this!

Every time this subject is discussed these issues come up, and it's great, as long as things are kept in perspective! It [I]IS a risk[/I] to take a Catalina 36 across the Pacific and down to NZ, so I don't say it's easy OR that the Catalina is the best boat.

IF you get caught broadside on to a Breaking Wave (most so called 'breaking waves' are just relatively harmless breaking crests) higher than about half the waterline length then [I]ANY[/I] boat will be rolled [I]regardless of how suitable she is for offshore sailing[/I]. Of course a heavy boat with small portlights will come back up in better condition than a Catalina. The Catalina 36 has a marginal righting moment - but in most cases you shouldn't be upside down for too long. :eek:

If you DO go offshore, you must have a plan for dealing with very heavy weather.

At age 53 I have found the frustrations, fright, seasickness, trials and exhaustion (and thrills, elation and sense of achievement) have been [I]well worth it.[/I] We could die at sea, we could also die on the motorway or in our sleep.

[QUOTE=jackheaston;12388]
For those taking their Catalina 36s offshore - I wish them and their boats the very best. They will probably be fine. IMHO, I think there are boats much better suited to the task.

Grandma Jack[/QUOTE]

Thanks for that :)

Thanks Graham - for your kind words :) Remember the blog journals the stupid learning experiences I've generated as well as what has worked...

Hi Rob

First, I should apologize for airing my thoughts, since they seem to be a rehash of what others have already said. Happily, my drivel can be dismissed with a mere click of the mouse.

Second, I sincerely do appreciate your thoughtful observations and the time you used constructing them. I have always garnered a lot more knowledge from these forums than my whimsy has provided.

To your question about why go to weather in 50 kts, versus employing more traditional storm tactics: It was 10 years ago, so my memory is not crystal clear, but....

Four of us had hand-steered from Hawaii for almost three weeks and were within a couple days of the entrance to the Strait of Juan de Fuca - and home to Everett. That "Gethomeitis" in itself was no excuse for abusing a boat, but we were making reasonable progress towards our destination. Anything else would take us 180 away from where we wanted to go.

We felt we could advance through the approaching low pressure system quicker this way, than if we hove to or ran off under bare poles, thus minimizing the time we were exposed to adverse conditions. This turned out to be the case.

We were not (YET) in danger of being against a dangerous lee shore, but given two days of going the wrong way.... We could very well find ourselves there. Refuge along the northern Washington coast does not exist.

The boat, rig, sails, lines, etc., seemed to be doing okay - better than us actually. We were quartering partially up the face of the waves and falling off as they passed below. We maintained sufficient headway and steerage to avoid being caught wallowing in the troughs.

There were a few wave tops which briefly put a lot of water in the cockpit, but it quickly drained trough a wide opening in the stern. Those in the cockpit were all tethered in and never felt in danger of being swept over the side. There were two of us in the cockpit in case the helmsman were to be knocked down by a boarding wave. We felt the conditions were serious, but not life-threatening.

Looking ahead, we could see what appeared to be a slightly less angry ocean off in the distance. I'm now sure that was wishful thinking on our part, and a result of fatigue clouding our senses. We felt the worst was behind us and easier conditions lay ahead. We decided to press on.

Hope this answers your question and, again, thank you for your response.

Jack

Thanks, Jack, no need to apologize :)

A very interesting experience you had! I know the feeling of not wanting to give up hard earned sea miles. With just the two of us, hand steering for that time is not going to happen, so our hope is the Jordan drogue or para anchor would keep the lost ground to something bearable.

You make another good point here about the cockpit drains - I have plans to add another larger one asap...

...Which all adds to the potential disadvantage of tricking up the Catalina 36 for offshore possibly reducing resale value. Not a biggie for a small hull number like me.

Fair winds :)

Rob,

I'd like to hear all about the extra scupper you are putting in the cockpit. What made you decide to do it, how are you going to do it, where are you going to place it, etc.

thanks

Nick

Nick - I've kept putting this one in the 'Too Hard' basket for 5 years now! I'm hoping for some inspiration when we return to Wind Star in May.

Reason to do it? We have a Jordan Drogue which is probably our preferred storm tactic when we run out of active measures. We've beefed up the companionway in case of wave strike but the small scuppers do concern me.

We used our Jordan when our steering cable broke leaving Wellington in 40 knots and now and then a bit of foamy water came over the transom - so that's next on the list. Also the dodger acts like an air scoop with the drogue, so it would have to fold down in a big blow. It coped with prolonged gusts up to 55 knots OK though.

If I do figure it out I will post :-)

Rob,can you set the drogue from the bow?as in the Pardeys Storm Tactics?They run a block on a line to a cockpit winch,The block runs down the drogue line a few yards ...with some adjusting they take the seas on the forward quarter like in a reaching attitude,this spares the vulnerable cockpit from taking seas astern.

Hi Greig,

From all my reading up on the subject, it seems there is no 'magic bullet' answer to storm tactics... but I do know a couple of things:

1) Story after story goes something like this: "We were running before the storm when suddenly there was a roar like a freight train and from out of nowhere we were hit by a huge breaking wave and were broached / knocked down / pitchpoled / rolled..."
2) With just the two of us we can't hand steer for the duration of a storm.

So we have BOTH a Coppins Parachute anchor and a Jordan series drogue. The Jordan isn't designed to run over the bow, it attaches to the transom via a bridle to chain plates on each quarter.

We have used our parachute anchor once (when I managed to get our drogue wrapped around our propellor and rudder retrieving it) to wait for morning in about 30 knots which reduced to 20 or so overnight. It is nice in that you can still hide behind the dodger :) but we did sail about a bit like we do at anchor and I suspect this would be far worse in 50 knots.

I've thought a lot about a bridle for the parachute but I can't work out an easy system to 'fairlead' it through the stem fitting...

All the blurb on the Jordan site says you will not be hit by hard water whilst on the drogue, just foam, but other commenters are dubious of this.

Very interesting Rob,especially for our boats which are perhaps not ideal offshore designed,storm tactics are more important for us than heavier vessels.Fatigue is a big factor,anything that both allows you to not have to tend the boat while not losing too much ground seems ideal.The sinking of Skip Taylors "Wildflower"was largely due to a lack of a good para/drogue plan and fatigue.Anyway,if you ever get a chance to review Larry Pardeys "Storm Tactics"dvd (they are living in NZ north islands somewhere) seems like a good answer(yes a fair lead for the bow line would have to be figured out and its a bit of work to deploy)The boat lies in a reaching attitude and doesnt sail around or back down on the rudder,angle to the wind is adjusted from the cockpit with a snatch block riding on the para line..breaking seas hit the forward quarter where the boat handles it best..

Gentlemen

We are prepping for a trip to nowhere with no schedule.

Starting in Toronto planning to take the Hudson to NY City then the ICW south after hurricane season. Do you feel a drogue is necessary, before we get to the open water?

Have chartered in Greece, Antigua and BVI sailed in 70 knots (micro burst) and never experienced the need for a drogue on Lake Ontario or the charter trips.

That said 2 weeks on a charter boat or using reciprocal marina privileges for weeks on end vs living on a C36 is dramatically different.

Thank you for your insight.

Brad

Hi Brad. Just a thought, but you might get a better response if you begin a new thread since your question has nothing to do with the original post, ie. sailing to the South Pacific.:D

Mike

Hi Brad - not sure where you plan to go after the ICW - you'd likely only need a drogue in open water with 20 miles or more offing if something unplanned happens. We have our Jordan drogue ready to deploy, flaked in figure 8s in a fish bin, bridle led up each side of the bin ready to hook onto chainplates I bolted to the coaming on each side of the stern.
we've used ours once when we had to wait 3 hours for a tow after our steering cable broke and once when following seas were pushing us a bit hard overnight on a passage.
We think of it as insurance, really, to take over when we can't cope with the conditions and for some reason we can't heave-to...

Have fun :-)