New Site - Forum Policy

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HowLin's picture
HowLin
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New Site - Forum Policy

I have some concerns on how the latest website roll-out and forum membership changes were implemented. 

My membership came due about a week before the website cvhanges came into effect.  I was out on a 10 day cruise at the time.  When I returned and tried to log into the site it would not accept my password.  With a password change I was able to then log in to the site but was unable to see the forums.  Unbenownst to me it was now not possible to see the forums without being a paid member.  

(Apparently the forum limits number of characters in a post - so I will have to continue in a second post)

---- Howard & Linda Matwick ----

--- S/V "Silhouette" - Nanaimo, BC ----

--- 1999  C36 MkII  #1776 M35BC ---

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HowLin
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I am totally agreeable to supporting the association; I have been a paying member since purchasing my C36 in 2012; but the way that the changes were made is very poor in my opinion. I worked in IT for several years; it was standard practice to give several weeks (if not months) advance notification before making changes that might affect people's access.

It's too bad that this change was brought forward without membership input - I think it was a little heavy-handed...

It is after all, the paid members that support this web-site - and I believe they should have a say in major changes to OUR community.

---- Howard & Linda Matwick ----

--- S/V "Silhouette" - Nanaimo, BC ----

--- 1999  C36 MkII  #1776 M35BC ---

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gforaker
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Posts: 133

They did give a bit of notice quite a while ago, but I do agree that a more timely last warning or heads up would have been more friendly.

The leadership decided to make everything locked down to members only.  I'm not as sure as they are that this is the way to attract new memebers.   Lots of other great forums such as the C34 site are open to all and are much busier and accessable than ours.   It just seems kind of mean spirited.   The email list was also shut off without a last warning.   This was not really the best example of communication.

Gene Foraker
Sandusky Yacht Club
Sandusky, OH
1999  C36  #1786
Gypsy Wagon

FlyMeAway
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Posts: 241

I could not agree more. I think the decision was incredibly heavy-handed, and membership should have been consulted (and perhaps allowed to vote) on such a drastic change:

  1. The "style" of the website looks slightly better, but that's a matter of aesthetics and arguable
  2. Usability is significantly diminished. Elements don't fit on a single page, navigation is more confusing, font sizes are unnecessarily large / different, etc. It is very poorly designed
  3. The forum change breaks several things, not the least of which is Google search. Furthermore, all of the old posts are now non-searchable with Google, which was my primary way of searching the site (as the internal search was and remains pretty terrible; was not an issue when all posts were indexed in Google)
  4. The post length limit is horrendous

Seriously, guys, how is it that week took one of the BEST resources for sailors on the web (and a big part of the reason I chose a Catalina) and went a ways towards destroying it?

David
s/v Portmanteau
Hull #2133 -- 2003 MKII
Seattle, WA

FlyMeAway
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Posts: 241

Since the character limit cut me off...

What's necessary for:

  1. A vote of the members on the open/closed forum decisions (I would expect this to happen only after significant debate and input, including an informed discussion of costs of the old vs. new website, alternatives (such as raising membership fees), etc)
  2. Removing the post length limit
  3. Re-opening the archived forums, which remain indexed by Google

David
s/v Portmanteau
Hull #2133 -- 2003 MKII
Seattle, WA

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gforaker
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Posts: 133

As for the Google searches on history, now that the forums are locked down, the Google spiders can not catalog them for future searches.   I too, find the forum software a bit odd.   I think SMF forum software is a bit more freindly.   Look at C34.org for an example but many other sites I visit also use it.

Gene Foraker
Sandusky Yacht Club
Sandusky, OH
1999  C36  #1786
Gypsy Wagon

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HowLin
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Posts: 355

I do want to commend the efforts of our volunteers in organizing and upkeeping of the many facets of this community.

It's just that communication and consensus were not taken into account regarding these changes.  We need to learn from this in future.

---- Howard & Linda Matwick ----

--- S/V "Silhouette" - Nanaimo, BC ----

--- 1999  C36 MkII  #1776 M35BC ---

BudStreet
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Joined: 9/4/09
Posts: 1127

Please read the summary Sue Griesbach posted of the reasons the board felt it was necessary to take this step:

http://www.catalina36.org/comment/55132#comment-55132

There's a lot of background history that got the association to the point that we needed to undertake this work and get 3rd party support to do it in future.  We were in a situation where one very generous member had built and ran for free a website that only he could effectively run.  He moved on, the site began to fail, we had problems to solve.

If people would direct their technical articles to the website and not the forums we may not have had to take that step.  But the technical articles submissions have dried up.  The new site includes a process for anyone to submit a tech article, to be reviewed and posted by a TechEditor.  Please use that process instead of the forum for tech content.  The site is a WIP and we will address concerns with it going forward.

 

FlyMeAway
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Posts: 241

Thanks Bud. Frankly, the post you link to lays out a rationale without laying out any real reasons. Real reasons could be:

  1. Membership numbers (and dues) have declined precipitously as tech articles have migrated to the Forums
  2. Tech questions disproportionately asked by non-members (and answered by members; if those are also answered by non-members then adding the paywall to the forum will just drive those folks elsewhere)
  3. Anything else that identifies cause, effect, and action

I'm sorry to be so combatitive but I'm feeling a real sense of loss, as one of my favorite resources on the web has been significantly handicapped. The C34 forums run much the same (although their interface is vastly superior to this new one), their dues are lower, and they are not behind a paywall.

Furthermore, I'm frustrated that many of our best posters/commenters (e.g., Stu, Mainesail) may not be Association members, as they are not current C36 owners (excuse my error if both Stu and Maine are members).

David
s/v Portmanteau
Hull #2133 -- 2003 MKII
Seattle, WA

BudStreet
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Posts: 1127

David, both Stu and MaineSail are being given honorary memberships to the site regardless of whatever membership they have.  We know what a valuable resource they have been and we do not want to lose that.

 

FlyMeAway
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Posts: 241

That's awesome! Thank you guys for that. That's one thing we will all appreciate.

 

Did you guys reach out to the C34 forum to get a sense of a) the platform they use and b) how/why they have managed to be successful without a paywall and with lower dues?

Did you reach out to them and suggest merging forums, given the similarities of our boats and the obvious efficiencies of scale involved?

David
s/v Portmanteau
Hull #2133 -- 2003 MKII
Seattle, WA

BudStreet
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Posts: 1127

David, that idea has been kicked around on and off but there have been no serious talks that I am aware of.  I think it would be a very big deal to merge the two groups and retain their data given the differences in platforms.  Not impossible, but certainly not an insignficant task, there would have to be a lot of give on both sides.  Speaking personally, I think there's merit in that idea if for no other reason than we would have a bigger pool of members to draw volunteers from.  Volunteers make or break an association, and we have continual problems getting volunteers over here.

One other thing folks may not be aware of is the new Trial Membership.  When new people come to the site and create a membership they can get a Trial Membership that gives them 30 days to look around here and get a sense of what great technical resources we have here.  We think that the value is obvious and $30 a year is minimal for what we have to offer.

 

 

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HowLin
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Posts: 355

Thanks for the info and update Bud.  I'm still not sure that this policy will increase membership - might result in the opposite!

It would be interesting to know what the membership numbers are now - and then compare with the number, say 18 months from now...

---- Howard & Linda Matwick ----

--- S/V "Silhouette" - Nanaimo, BC ----

--- 1999  C36 MkII  #1776 M35BC ---

knotdoneyet
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Joined: 7/27/12
Posts: 253

As a paid member, I feel the attempt to coerce people to buy memberships is going to boomerang.  First I suspect that Stu and Mainsail are not the only two non-members that have contributed.  To be honest, even asking a question is contributing as it builds the knowledge base.

Without being in Google search, how is it that one feels people will find this site?  I found it through Google search when researching the Catalina 36.  Without Google, I would never had found it and never signed up.  I ended up over at the Catalina 350 site as they had great writeups on the M35B damper plate replacement - by this logic I will have to get a paid membership to that forum also?  Guess I shouldn't say that I also visited the Catalina 34 and 42 forums for helpful posts that  were relevant to my 36.

Utoh, running out of characters!

 

2000 C36 MKII 1825

BudStreet
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Posts: 1127

Jim, when I Google Catalina 36 the first site in the list I get is www.catalina36.org.  The google search part that David is referring to is when the Google search engine indexes our site, not the other way around.  We will still be very visible on Google search.

We are not "coercing" anyone into anything.  We are offering a resource that is invaluable to a Catalina 36 owner at a very reasonable price.  We offer them 30 days of free membership to try it out.  They decide to join or not.  The site has to be funded, it is the belief of the unpaid volunteer board that eventually there would be no reason for people to join with the forums getting all the tech content and being free.

Speaking strictly as an individual member, it offends me that we had people that saw no problem in using this resource and contributing nothing to its financial well being.  You're good with your neighbour not paying his taxes?   I'm not.

 

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Shawn f
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Posts: 9

Hello again,

I feel a bit awkward saying much here. I don't yet own a Catalina, so how much should I really say? But here goes, and then I'll be done. I've only sailed a few times, so I wasn't all that familiar with the brands of boats. In discussions on various forums, the Catalina isn't always given a whole lot of appreciation. Fortunately for me, I found your forum. It explained well that when I got my boat, I would have access to a lot of great material. In the meantime, I could view the forum and get to know what kind of people sail Catalina's. Compared to some sites, it seemed very friendly. I found a sailing school run by one of your members on the BC coast that uses the Catalina to teach lessons. I found a great blog of a members trip on the BC coast that really makes one look forward to the time when a boat comes available to travel in some of those areas. 

I'll finish up below

 

 

 

Shawn Fleck 1990 C-36 Mk1 
wing keel walk through transom 
Innisfree Alberta
Docked in Gibson's Harbour, Bc
​Hull # 1038

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Shawn f
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Now, I'm sorry if I offend you. I've never thought of finding, and taking, everything techie about Catalina's on the forum. Using your analogy, I see myself as a visitor looking wistfully at your community centre, with the understanding that I don't have permission to take anything from your community's  garage, until I move into the neighbourhood.  Then I pay my taxes, and can get in the garage. Unfortunately, you don't seem to want anyone to even see the neighbourhood. To be honest, you seem interested only with those who are already here. Not with those who might be. But thats fine, its your site and those are your decisions.  But,  you have made me feel a bit of an interloper. I do wish you the best in your association. 

Shawn Fleck 1990 C-36 Mk1 
wing keel walk through transom 
Innisfree Alberta
Docked in Gibson's Harbour, Bc
​Hull # 1038

knotdoneyet
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Joined: 7/27/12
Posts: 253

Shawn, 

I suspect this is one of those "best of intentions" scenarios that just needs to be re-examined.  My path here was exactly as yours and this site was key to me making the decision to purchase a Catalina 36 MKII.  It wouldn't have happened if it was a closed site.

Have to laugh at the "tax" comments, guess we're on par with Obama Care now!  Good news is that my site tax is paid untul 2016 - assuming the site does fail!  But I assume it's probably too big to fail.  :) :) :)  I am cracking myself up.

I will yield my remaining 364 characters to the next poster.

2000 C36 MKII 1825

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Rockman
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Posts: 237

This is an interesting discussion, because I manage another sailing site that never wrestled with these problems.

Why?

We took a different approach. Make the site so valuable, that when the site asks for donations to maintain it - we get overwhelmed with donations. It was so good, that people donated some prizes and we raffled them off. So we raised money and the members got the chance to win a great prize. We raised enough from one raffle to pay all the costs for 5 years!

We allow public access to a few very basic topics. Everybody can read the other topics, so Google can still search and index all the information. But people have to join (free) to post anything.

"Build it & they will come".

 

As for the post limit - this is easily fixed - the admins just have to increase the setting in the management panel (well thats what you would do in all the forum packages I have used).

Cheers

 

Cat375 - Rock The Boat - Hull 54
Lake Macquarie - NSW - Australia

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