Some strange electrical anomalies have been happening on my boat.
Clue #1: my AC instrument panel light has been flickering, sometimes more, sometimes less, sometimes not at all. It began happening right after I moved marinas, so I asked my new neighbor if he has been experiencing the same thing, and he said his AC power light doesn't flicker at all. He asked about my power coird and I Informed him it was only like a couple weeks old and was working fine all the way up to the move to the new marina we now share. This prompted him to look at my dock box power receptical, and he noticed mine was old and loose compared to his, and so recommended I put in a work order to have the dock box receptical replaced, which I did, but the flickering continued.
Clue #2: I sailed down to the next marina to fill my propane tank the other day, and when I went to start my engine to pull into the fuel dock the engine wouldn't start, and all engine panel gauges were dead. I then remembered that little red circuit breaker on the lower starboard side of my M35 engine, and the instruments came back to life and engine started right up after I pushed it.
Clue #3: the next day I realized I had no hot water, as I looked into it I realized that my water heater cicuit breaker on the instrument panel had been tripped and was sticking out. I also noticed that the AC light wasn't flickering until I pushed the water heater circuit breaker button back in, at which time the flickering AC light problem recommenced. However, a few days later, the AC light would flicker whether the water heater circuit breaker button was pulled out or pushed in.
So for all you electrical detectives out there, is it possible all these clues are related in some way?
Joel Schwartz
s/v Get-A-Grip
1993 Catalina 36 Hull #1259
Newport Beach, California
Oh, one last thing, I noticed when I opened my instrument panel to look at the wires when I first noticed the water heater circuit breaker had tripped, the AC wires that come into the engine panel from shore power would slightly spark and smoke whenever I would open and close the panel. However, after opening and closing the panel maybe five times the sparking and the little puffs of smoke from the sparks ceased. It was almost as if they were just a tad loose and the opening and closing of the instrument panel door settled them into place and then all sparking and smoking ceased. Everything on the panel continued to work, except the AC light kept flickering throughout, and continues to flicker, sometimes more, sometimes less, and sometimes not at all. Sometimes the light will go off for seconds at a time, but the fans, tv, and various appliances that are plugged into my AC outlets don't miss a beat and continue to work just fine. Very strange, no?
Joel Schwartz
s/v Get-A-Grip
1993 Catalina 36 Hull #1259
Newport Beach, California
[quote=JAS]....the AC wires that come into the engine panel from shore power would slightly spark and smoke whenever I would open and close the panel....?[/quote]
My assumption is that you mean the electrical panel and you don't really have AC going into your engine pane. Although this would explain why your engine power circuit breaker was tripped. Please tell me that someone has not wired AC into your engine panel.
Sparking is likely due to a loose connection. With AC power plug disconnected, tug and twist on each of the crimped lugs and wires on the AC breakers. Could explain the tripped breaker to the water heater -- repeated surges into can do this. Which ones of the following are true:
1. Your flickering lamp is AC "on" indicator.
2. Your flickering lamp is Reverse Polarity indicator.
3. Your flickering lamp is Neon.
4. Your flickering lamp is LED.
Other than the main AC breaker, do not turn on any of the other AC breakers until you positively remedy the situation. An AC fault on a boat is especially dangerous to you and your boat. If you're not extremely confident in this area, my suggestion is to hire a marine electrician.
If you get AC imposed on the DC system (which could explain the engine circuit breaker trip), even for a few milliseconds, this can be very bad. I was a bench tech in the 1970s (I'm an old fart) and did this with an ASCII terminal. Troubleshooting the circuit boards was easy from that point. They were all trash.
Nick Caballero
Retired C36/375IA Mk II Technical Editor
Sorry, somehow I missed your comment. You are quite right, I mean Instrument Panel, not engine panel. I will begin tugging and twisting on the lugs you mentioned tomorrow! Thanks for the advice.
PS If you have any clues or advice on why my engine circuit breaker trips every couple of years, I'm all ears :o)
Joel Schwartz
s/v Get-A-Grip
1993 Catalina 36 Hull #1259
Newport Beach, California
Joel,
My bet is that the AC panel light is just going bad. Mine did the same thing, got another at Radio Shack for a couple bucks. Solder it in and your fine.
My boat is a 1993 hull number 1252.
Bill Matley
Duncan Bay Boat Club
Cheboygan, Michigan
Lakes Huron, Michigan,
Canadian North Channel
"Spirit of Aloha" Hull #1252
So you think each symptom may be unrelated to the other?
Joel Schwartz
s/v Get-A-Grip
1993 Catalina 36 Hull #1259
Newport Beach, California
I suppose I will need to get new AC light either way, so it is the first thing on my to do list. Thanks!
Joel Schwartz
s/v Get-A-Grip
1993 Catalina 36 Hull #1259
Newport Beach, California
Joel
This is a very serious problem.
You need to find this sparking and smoke problem right away! This problem will not get better and just might burn your boat down.
First thing, I would do remove AC power and check every single connection on the panel. Clean and tighten every single connection. If you find evidence of a bad/ burnt connection replace that connector any wiring that has gotten hot. Any loose connections will get hot!
What is sparking? Were is the smoke coming from! Must solve this problem.
Sounds like bad connections to me. The hot water heater is the largest draw on the boat. Next might be what ever is plugged into an A/C outlet.
If this was happening on my boat I would look at every connection on the entire boat. Starting at the panel because you saw smoke. All the outlets and connection for shore power. After all this checks out and repaired then worry about the light and the cb popping.
Chuck Lennox
97 MKii Ventura Ca
Island Girl Hull #1611
Yikes! Electricity, wires, and electronics are very mysterious and scary to me. Time to read up and start the process of demystification!
Joel Schwartz
s/v Get-A-Grip
1993 Catalina 36 Hull #1259
Newport Beach, California
[quote=JAS]Yikes! Electricity, wires, and electronics are very mysterious and scary to me. Time to read up and start the process of demystification![/quote]
Joel, WADR, this is nonsense. You may want to consider applying your boat's name, "Get a Grip" to this issue. You're right, time to read up.
None of us was born an electrician. Those of us who cared about our own safety and those of our families and guests, either learned, or as Tom Soko suggested, got qualified marine electricians, to repair our boats.
Most of us learned, because when you're "out there" there aren't any tow trucks. You're on your own.
Tough love perhaps, but true.
Don't mess with sparks, they could kill you, sink your boat, start a fire and burn your boat and your neighbors' boats, too.
Sorry to be blunt, but this "elekricity is scary to me" attitude and approach is, well, truly scary to me. I see it all over internet boating forums.
There is no excuse to NOT learn this stuff. Actually, it's pretty simple.
Charlie Wing's book, Boatowners Illustrated Electrical Handbook, is a very good start for you. There is also a TON of electrical material on the internet, most of it very trustworthy, like Maine Sail's website and this: Electrical Systems 101 http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5977.0.html
Stu Jackson, C34IA Secretary, C34 #224, 1986, SR/FK, M25 engine, Rocna 10 (22#)
Ouch...but point we'll taken...but ouch!
Joel Schwartz
s/v Get-A-Grip
1993 Catalina 36 Hull #1259
Newport Beach, California
Wow, just checked out your link...what a fount of information...thank you!
Joel Schwartz
s/v Get-A-Grip
1993 Catalina 36 Hull #1259
Newport Beach, California
How many feet away (distance) is your shore power plugin from the ac/dc panel? How large is your ac wire? How clean are your connections at the panel for the ac wire? Have you put a thermal scanner on it to check for any hotspots?
I had a similar problem and per ABYC spec (as I recall, i.e. I don't have the specs in front of me - just read ABOUT them and we talked about them on this forum), moved my shorepower plugin location to within 3 feet of the ac/dc panel. This solved the problem...or maybe just new and larger and cleaner wires and connections solved the problem. Not sure which.
The ac line at the panel was smoking off and on, so obviously there was a lot of resistance there. Really dangerous and really scary, so I fixed it immediately.
I think I had another forum thread about this way back when. I could try to find it, if you like, but knowing more about ac power than I did back then, I'm questioning the 3 feet rule in my mind. I mean, ac is much more forgiving than dc on wire length and wire size, yes? And I've seen a lot of new boats with the ac plugin at the stern and the ac/dc panel near the mid-section of the boat...so obviously that's not 3 feet.
Ben Ethridge
Miami, FL
1984 MK1 Hull# 263
The distance between where my boat plugs in (aft portion of the port lazarrette) to the instrument panel is probably 8 to 10 feet if you draw a straight line. I have never seen, used, or even thought about a thermal scanner before, but it sounds like I need to get one.
Joel Schwartz
s/v Get-A-Grip
1993 Catalina 36 Hull #1259
Newport Beach, California
I got this one:
http://www.davis.com/Product/Fluke_62_MAX_Compact_Infrared_Thermometer_10_1/YX-39641-16?referred_id=3388&gclid=CMiA9ZXvjM0CFcdehgodY_0JfA
Per the book "Advanced Marine Electrics and Electronics Troubleshooting", which I also bought, it's good for many heat issues. As well as pointing out high-wire-resistance corrosion issues quickly, you can point it at your engine's cylinders and see quickly if any are out of correct temperature range, to get early warning on impending engine issues.
Ben Ethridge
Miami, FL
1984 MK1 Hull# 263
Wow, that thing costs a pretty penny! I have a kids thermometer that measures temperature like that. I'm going to check and see if it has multiple uses. If it doesn't fit the bill I will just have to bite the bullet and buy one, because I know it's absence will bug me until I add one to my ever growing collection of tools.
Joel Schwartz
s/v Get-A-Grip
1993 Catalina 36 Hull #1259
Newport Beach, California
Duplicate comment erased
Joel Schwartz
s/v Get-A-Grip
1993 Catalina 36 Hull #1259
Newport Beach, California
Joel - The AC light on my panel is an LED. Yours may be an neon light. Those indicator light bulbs loose the gas and start to flicker. It does not indicate any type of trouble on your boat wiring. The smoking indicates high resistance due to corroded contacts. Disconnect the shore power and remove the connection where it smokes - use steel wool to clean the contacts, apply lanoline to keep from corroding and connect it back up.
Sail La Vie 1999 Catalina 36 MKII, M35B-17031, Coyote Point, San Mateo, CA
About Sail La Vie
I have only seen it spark and smoke where the wire strands come through the crimp of one of the terminals where the AC wires attach to my instrument panel. And this phenomenon only seemed to happen when I opened and shut my instrument panel. It's almost as if the wires were being pulled a bit by the opening and shutting of the panel door. I kept opening and shutting the panel to see if the sparking and smoking (not huge sparks not huge smoke mind you) would keep happening, and after about 5 or 6 times of opening and closing the panel door the sparking and smoking stopped. It was almost as if the wires settled in and re-established a good contact. Of course I could be totally wrong about that!
However, I was thinking that all the "clues" mentioned in the OP might be related. But it sounds like that may be just coincidence.
Does your cleaning advice still stand if it is the wires between the crimp of the contact that are sparking and smoking, rather than the contact itself?
Joel Schwartz
s/v Get-A-Grip
1993 Catalina 36 Hull #1259
Newport Beach, California
Putting steel wool and lonolin on my shopping list...Thanks!
Joel Schwartz
s/v Get-A-Grip
1993 Catalina 36 Hull #1259
Newport Beach, California
Joel
Trust me. This problem is only going to get worst! I would not leave A/C power on until it fixed. May be as simple as cutting the wire back a little and adding a new connector. Worst case you might have cut out bad wire and add a small replacement piece. Buy marine connectors and tinned wire not cheap ones. It may only be a 10 minute job at this point.
Chuck Lennox
97 MKii Ventura Ca
Island Girl Hull #1611
Yes - definitely cut, wire and start over. The problem is not going away.
Sail La Vie 1999 Catalina 36 MKII, M35B-17031, Coyote Point, San Mateo, CA
About Sail La Vie
Btw, I think you are right about my electrical problem not getting better. I visited the boat yesterday and this time the water heater and the AC circuit breakers both tripped. The water heater definitely tripped while I was gone, not sure when the outlets tripped as I did not discover until after I plugged in a fan that would not turn on.
Joel Schwartz
s/v Get-A-Grip
1993 Catalina 36 Hull #1259
Newport Beach, California
Joel,
As Chuck suggested above, I would NOT leave the boat with the AC plugged in until you have found and solved the problem. You might come back and find the boat burned to the waterline. Turn everything off and call a qualified electrician.
Tom Sokoloski
C36/375IA Past Commodore
Noank, CT
I will likely call an electrician in the end, but I at least want to know a little something before they get here.
Joel Schwartz
s/v Get-A-Grip
1993 Catalina 36 Hull #1259
Newport Beach, California
Ok, I am following Nigel Calder "comprehensive grounding and corrosion procedures" with a multimeter.
Hot to neutral at shore power receptical = 120V
Hot to ground = 120V
Neutral to ground = 0V
So first three tests check out.
However, when I tested the shore power receptical ground to sea water, the AC voltage reads .6v at the 200 volt setting. According to Calder anything above zero volts on this test means there is a dockside leak to ground, and that boat should not be plugged in until the situation is rectified.
Is there anybody familiar with this last test who can shed some light on the severity of a voltmeter that reads .6 volts at the 200v setting. It doesn't seem like much. Should I really disconnect the boat from shore power over this.
In the meantime, I am moving on to phase 2, namely boat grounding tests.
Joel Schwartz
s/v Get-A-Grip
1993 Catalina 36 Hull #1259
Newport Beach, California
Thought I'd post my notes so far. Not sure what all this means. Any and all comments are more than welcome :o)
Dockside ground to sea water .6 volts at 200v setting
Amp function on multimeter does not seam to be working.
Diode test on Galvanic Isolator...000 in both directions with green wire connected and posts shorted with alligator clips (as per Calder), however reads1240 and 1260 in both directions with green wires disconnected (as per Maine Sail). Repeated testing after green wire terminals abrased with plumbers sand cloth, same readings as above both ways.
At panel, resistance at 4 prong cicuit breaker (in on/pushed in position) across top .2, .1 across bottom, outlets circuit breaker .1, water heater cb .2, all at the 200 ohm setting.
Remeasured 4 prong circuit breaker in on/pushed in position, (top and bottom instead of horizontally this time) at 200 ohm setting, black and white on left = 162, black and white on right also 162.
When set to 200 ohm setting and connected from power coord ground (plugged into boat but not shorepower) and green bus bar, various numbers in the low to high hundreds flash, but then multimeter immediately returns to resting reading of "1" (same reading as when not testing anything), same thing happens in outlets. I wonder if initial spike and then immediate return to no reading is just a phenomenon of first contact, or if it is related to some sort of problem that spikes and then disappears immediately after first contact.
When connecting white/neutral bus bar to green/grounding bus bar ohm meter set at 200 reads .2 to .3, Calder says this means that neutral and grounding circuits are improperly tied together on pg 142.
When touching power coord ground lug (same power coord configuration as above) to engine block, ohm meter just stays at "1", doesn't budge. Calder says if there should be a low Ohm reading here. If not it means the AC grounding to DC negative connection is faulty and should be fixed (pg 142). But what if there is no reading? I.e. ohm meter continues to read "1"?
Used plumbers sand paper to abrase a couple of corroded looking contacts, this sanded the tin coating away and exposed what looks like copper underneath...did I just damage the contact?
Joel Schwartz
s/v Get-A-Grip
1993 Catalina 36 Hull #1259
Newport Beach, California
PS The testing of my circuit breakers was not called for in Calder's book, I tested them myself because they were the ones popping, sparking and smoking. And I unscrewed the contact on the AC circuit break that was sparking and smoking, abrased it plumbers abrasive sand cloth, lubricated it, and put it back together. Unfortunately(?), that was one of the contacts that the plumbers sand paper took off the tin coating. I'm assuming that means that it will now corrode even faster.
Joel Schwartz
s/v Get-A-Grip
1993 Catalina 36 Hull #1259
Newport Beach, California
I am really confounded by the readings when I test my galvanic isolator, according to Calder I should have a reading of about a .8 drop in voltage across the terminals when my multimeter is set to the diode testing setting, but instead I have a reading in the 1250 to 1260 range. Calder doesn't provide specific numbers to compare my reading against but says that a high reading is indicative of an open circuited diode but doesn't say weather an open circuited is diode is a good thing or a bad thing.
Joel Schwartz
s/v Get-A-Grip
1993 Catalina 36 Hull #1259
Newport Beach, California
are you on an ohm scale ??? - you only have 240/120 volts to start with -- very hard to get to 1200 with that. 3/4 Volt drop across a forward bias diode is about right.
Les & Trish Troyer
Mahalo
Everett, WA
1983 C-36 Hull #0094
C-36 MK 1 Technical Editor.
Commodore
Ohms read nothing (at 200 setting, it reads the same "1" on the screen before and after I test the Galvanic Isolator in both diections. It is on the diode setting that Calder says I should be reading approx a .8 drop, but on that setting I'm reading 1250-plus in both directions. It looks like I misread the book, as Calder says a high ohm reading is indicative of an open circuit. I get no reading in the lowest ohm setting, but 1250-plus when I switch to the diode setting (where I am supposed to get approx a .8 voltage drop reading).
Joel Schwartz
s/v Get-A-Grip
1993 Catalina 36 Hull #1259
Newport Beach, California
I would read the manual on your vom - you probably have a 9 V battery in your meter - so testing the device you cant get any higher than that (unless there is a very powerful dc/dc booster in there - unlikely)
How to test a galvanic isolator that doesn't have a monitoring system.. (http://www.pkys.com/FAQ/galvanic.htm)
Galvanic isolators are a bit difficult to test. Current ABYC standards require that galvanic isolators be self testing. For testing older isolators without this feature there are a number of methods that can be used, the one that follows is one that I found most useful.
Unplug the boat from shore power before starting the test.
Disconnect one lead of the isolator so that you are testing it only. Get a digital multimeter set to the diode test function. Put one lead on one side of the isolator and the other lead on the other side.
As the capacitor starts to conduct current the reading should rise to approximately 0.9 volts. Remove the test leads, short the two wires of the isolator together to discharge the capacitor and repeat the test with the test leads reversed. You should get the same answer.
Interpreting the readings:
Les & Trish Troyer
Mahalo
Everett, WA
1983 C-36 Hull #0094
C-36 MK 1 Technical Editor.
Commodore
Thanks for your reply, I have a newer, better multimeter coming. When it arrives, I will try again using your link.
Another interesting tidbit, when I switch the ohm setting from 200 to 2000, I get a Reading of 1180...and when I turn the multimeter to the diode setting, I get the exact same reading. All other test on the ohm scale rend a 1 (which I just learned means infinity) so on the ohm scale, 2000k, 200k, 20k, and 200 render 1 or infinity, where's the 2000 ohm setting and the diode setting both render the same reading, 1180. Very strange. I'm starting to think something might be wrong with my cheapy multimeter.
Joel Schwartz
s/v Get-A-Grip
1993 Catalina 36 Hull #1259
Newport Beach, California
Tested all my outlets, they all read between 119 and 120 volts.
Joel Schwartz
s/v Get-A-Grip
1993 Catalina 36 Hull #1259
Newport Beach, California
one other comment/warning to folks reading this thread - using vom diode test and/or Ohm settings on new electronic devices can burn them out. Much of the newer electronics can't stand anything over 1.3V - so know have a good understanding of what your testing and how the test gear works.
Les
Les & Trish Troyer
Mahalo
Everett, WA
1983 C-36 Hull #0094
C-36 MK 1 Technical Editor.
Commodore
Joel
How does the wire going into the A/C connectors look? Is it green or burnt? Do you think, you think you have fixed the problem? No more smoke and sparks? This is really hard to trouble shoot these problems over the net. Maybe a close up picture of these connectors might help us, help you. I kind of think most of the real problems will go away once you get good solid A/C power. Were the connectors loose?
Chuck Lennox
97 MKii Ventura Ca
Island Girl Hull #1611
No more smoking or sparking, but I have no idea if I fixed the problem. Still, I feel a lot more confident about working with my electrical now that I have run a few tests from Calder's book and few others suggested by my fellow sailors on this forum. As far as the offending wire/terminal is concerned, I sanded it down and lubricated it. It wasn't green, but it didn't look that great either. But currently it is not exhibiting any scary behaviors.
Joel Schwartz
s/v Get-A-Grip
1993 Catalina 36 Hull #1259
Newport Beach, California
Also, I learned about some stuff I wasn't intending to learn about. I learned that my gavanic isolator is likely not working properly, when I tested my water heater, I found and fixed a leak at my water heater line that was slowly filling my bilge (that I mistakenly thought was coming from washing my boat and over filling my tanks), I discovered a .6 volt reading in the water near my shore power (which Calder says is a serious issue) and reported it to my marina, I discovered that my neutral and ground circuits are likely improperly tied together (see above), and I took off and cleaned the misbehaving terminal that got this whole process started....but I'm not sure any of this interesting information and cleaning is at all tied to the sparking and smoking I witnessed at my AC breaker!
Joel Schwartz
s/v Get-A-Grip
1993 Catalina 36 Hull #1259
Newport Beach, California
I am guessing the sparking and smoking could be the crimp on connectors where the AC first enters your panel. If there is any doubt I would re-crimp them. There are lots of opinions on how to properly crimp wires and what tools and crimps to use. Do a search and you'll see what I mean. The arcing and smoke should be fixed asap.
As a side note, I noticed that the wire from my shore power plug that goes through the boat to the power panel was a #12 cable. It was a good marine grade cable, but the circuit breaker that protects it was 30 amps. I believe # 10 wire would be more appropriate. I don't know if this was something the previous owner had done or if all early C36's were wired this way.
I tend to heed the recommendations and advice of the member MaineSail. He does not offer the cheapest way of doing things but he can always be trusted.
Paul Cyr
C36 "At Last"
1984 hull# 369
Oriental, NC
Funny you should mention Maine Sail. His website came up when I was searching for additional information on galvonic isolators. I briefly mention him in one of my comments above. While at his website I bought a pair of his more moderately priced heat shrink terminal crimpers. I'll check on the AC power wire size when I get back to the boat. And while I still await the arrival of my purchase from Maine Sail, I went a bit crazy on Amazon and bought the following electrical tools which literally arrived just now. Needless to say I'm feeling like a kid in a candy store just looking at them...can't wait to put them to good use!
Joel Schwartz
s/v Get-A-Grip
1993 Catalina 36 Hull #1259
Newport Beach, California
Maine Sail's heat shrink terminal crimpers just arrived...time to head back to the boat and keep testing and then do me some crimping!
Joel Schwartz
s/v Get-A-Grip
1993 Catalina 36 Hull #1259
Newport Beach, California
Well, if you spent all that money on tools, I'm thinking you might as well spend a few more $ for the book I mentioned. It's a good troubleshooting guide, in addition to Calder.
Ben Ethridge
Miami, FL
1984 MK1 Hull# 263
I will check it out, Calder assumes I know more than I do in too many places. Thanks!
Joel Schwartz
s/v Get-A-Grip
1993 Catalina 36 Hull #1259
Newport Beach, California