Ok Guys,
Now I can say I don't have a clue.
I am installing a new alternator, due to adding a larger house bank and a larger start battery, the factory alternator can't charge the batteries efficientally. I found this site.
[url]www.pbase.com/mainecruising/catalina_36_alternator[/url].
They used a 90 amp alternator that is now made by LEECE NEVILLE (this company bought out Motorolla) The 55 amp we all have in the MKI M-25 engine. The part I really liked is THERE IS NOTHING TO MODIFY, everything is the same including the bolt up pattern and wiring pattern
The question I have is [COLOR="Red"]WH[/COLOR]Y IS the postive wire "RED" going to the starter and not to a Isolator and then to the batteries. I never had that setup on my boat. Last year I got rid of [U]the for ever long orange wire that went everywhere and then I could never find where.[/U]So I installed a new 12Ga wire from the output of alternator to the isolator. Now this wire is only 9'-10' long.
Everything charges correctally execpt just takes way to long.
Now am I missing something here? My engine starts fine, my system charges fine (execpt longer due to the small alt)
Let me know I am driving up to pick this new alternator up, I will say Ron knows a abunch about our system and the wiring diagram layout form the guy who wrote the article.
I am would like to here your opinion on this..
FAIR WINDS & FOLLOWING SEAS
Jeff Costa
S/V KAIROS Hull #0235
I'll take a stab at this.
The classic way the boat comes from the factory is as follows (you probably know this):
The red wire that connects both the starter and alternator goes to the main switch.
By selecting "1", "2", or "Both", you are, in the first case, deciding which batteries to use for starting.
After the engine is started, the switch now directs the charge and house loads to "1", "2", or "Both".
Without any other changes, if you did not combine the starter and alternator red wire, you'd need two switches to separately manage starter and alternator/house load paths.
If you use an isolator, you can still use the factory wiring and master switch, the change would be that you wouldn't need the "Both" position to ensure both battery banks are being charged.
BTW, you might check to verify that 12 AWG wire is heavy enough to sustain a 9' to 10' run at 90 amp (your new alternator). Is that a one way or round trip measurement?
Otherwise, check the archives of the C34 and C36 groups for very extensive and intelligent discussions of more contemporary battery management systems and philosophies.
Graham Mackey
SV Nostromo
1989 C36 908
Tall Rig/Wing Keel
Toronto, Canada
Jeff,
Let me offer a few suggestions, too. I completely agree with Graham's cautionary question. 12 ga wire is NOT heavy enough for the charging current. You should have at least 4 ga, if not 2 ga or 0 ga. Also, if you read MaineSail's description carefully, he suggests putting the output of the alternator directly to the battery(ies). As an alternative, his pictures show the alternator output going to the starter terminal, which is then wired to the common terminal of the battery switch. Another word of caution. Battery isolators (diodes) fell out of favor many years ago. Unless wired very carefully, so that the sensing wire from an external regulator goes to the output side of the isolator, you will have cronically undercharged batteries. The voltage drop thru the isolator is substantial. I suggest you ditch the isolator and install an echo charger or combiner. As soon as MaineSail wrote about the LeeceNeville alternator, I installed one in Julandra. It is awesome. Just as you say, same size, same bolts, easy to install. At the same time, though, I also installed heavier wiring, a dedicated starting battery, and an echo charger. The output from the alternator goes directly to the house bank, and the starting battery gets charged from the echo charger. No need to remember which battery I'm charging or using. Everything was automatic. You might want to do a little more research and build a better system than you have now with the isolator.
Tom Sokoloski
C36/375IA Past Commodore
Noank, CT
Hi Tom
Already deep sixed the isolator, I spoke to Ron today and he told me that, the isolator itself draws current and tyo get rid of it. I he also told me to do eaxactly as you described above. I already changed out the wire this morning to a 4 gauge which he said would be good, and till the alternator caomes in I am wired to the battery switch. Which will hold me for a week .
When we tested the alt voltage at alt. is was 13.79. once it went through the isolator it dropped to 12.09 going to batteries. Which according to Ron was a very large drop.
I already ordered the New Alt. I also ordered the XANTREX LinkPRO Battery monitor
AND AS ALWAYS Tom everything you said was what Ron said.
Thanks again for all you help guys
FAIR WINDS & FOLLOWING SEAS
Jeff Costa
S/V KAIROS Hull #0235
I did a complete rewire of the batteries and charging system on my 1992
C36, this winter. A survey with a marine electrician showed that most wire sizes were completely inadequate, modifications made over the years were pooly done. The factory wiring was too small and untinned wire, thus showing corrosion in many places. The system was not fused up 2011 standards, and the alternator was just too small.
So, 4 new Dyno GC2H, 6v batteries, plus a dedicated start battery, now
490 AH plus the start battery. New Balmar alternator and voltage reg.
Battery wiring, 2/0, alternator wiring and engine ground #1 wire, 2/0 wiring to the battery selector. Battery combiner and battery monitor. Fusing at every place indicated by 2011 standards and sized correctly to the wiring. All wire runs checked for sire size/load and replaced where necessary.
This was a pricy way to go and may not be necessary for every situation but for serious use it seems to work well. The marine electrician and I developed a new schematic. I was able to make all the changes and just invited him back to check my work and bring his tools to crimp the heavy wire/ lug combos.
The new alternator, de-rated from 80 amps to 70amps (necessary because of pully size) will charge about a normal days use of power in less than 2hours and mostly in the first hour of engine run.
If anyone wants some pics or more detail, I would be happy to send more.
Neil Roach
"Crewless"
1992 36, Mark I
Hull # 1174
Seattle
Jeff,
Good for you! And BTW, his name is Rodd, not Ron.
Tom Sokoloski
C36/375IA Past Commodore
Noank, CT
OOPS I have been calling him that for 2 weeks since I found the site, They must be right he is a nice guy. I would have hung up on me if someone keep calling me someone elses name LOL:)
FAIR WINDS & FOLLOWING SEAS
Jeff Costa
S/V KAIROS Hull #0235
Jeff, someone mentioned our 'site, a good place to start would be here: Electrical Systems 101: [url]http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5977.0.html[/url]
The links in it explain the oem wiring and what's necessary for upgrades. There's a good summary in one of the posts about the major changes needed for switching from the oem to the now "preferred" system, and includes some of Maine Sail's contributions.
Chris Stewart just started another thread about Leece Neville alternators that you might have seen, too.
Isolators don't take out current, they remove voltage. You need both to charge batteries.
And it just wouldn't be me if I didn't say: "Do a wiring diagram.":):):)
Stu Jackson, C34IA Secretary, C34 #224, 1986, SR/FK, M25 engine, Rocna 10 (22#)
We got back to the boat on the weekend, to discover that I forgot to check that the battery charger was not turned on. Ok, so it's only the fridge drawing power, and it's winter here, so the temperature range is 10 to 20 degrees celcius (metric system is great). Plus there has been nobody opening or closing the fridge over the last 7 days.
I checked the fridge, and it's lovely and cold, now the battery monitor.....
It still showed above 90%.
The battery bank is 450A/hr, so 45A/hrs over 7 days, is 6.5 A/day. Not bad for the factory fitted Isotherm fridge/freezer.
Cat375 - Rock The Boat - Hull 54
Lake Macquarie - NSW - Australia
[QUOTE=TomSoko;8792]Jeff,
Good for you! And BTW, his name is Rodd, not Ron.[/QUOTE]
I think he may have been referring to Ron at Ron's Auto Electric in ME....
The reason for the red jumper in that photo is because it was my own boat and I had no qualms about how to operate the battery switch. I had an Echo Charger but never got around to installing it on that boat.. I still prefer an Echo or ACR for other folks and suggest them to most of my customers. I currently use one on our CS-36T, but only so my solar can automatically charge both banks when I am not there. I did not use solar on our C-36.
Something sounds odd with the isolator voltage drop. Usually they are 0.7 to about 1.1V +/-. I will take a stab and guess that this was tested with the 12GA wire and the diode isolator in place???
-Maine Sail
https://www.marinehowto.com/
Yes it was> I had the 12ga wire like it said. The voltage out of the alt. was 13.79 to 13.81, the engine rpms were at 1800.
At the isolator, I had 12.01 to 12.07. At the batteries I had 12.01. For my battery banks, I have a house bank wwhich is 2 flooded 6 volts series together, and a group 31 deep cycle for my start.
After I removed the wire at alt, and changed it out to a 4ga, and ran it directly to the c post on battery swith the total length of wire was 10'-6".
When the swith is on postion 1, I now have 13.81 going in to the battery bank 1, and the same for postion 2 going into house bank. I also have now installed he Zantrex LinkPro Battery monitor.
Does this make sense ??
FAIR WINDS & FOLLOWING SEAS
Jeff Costa
S/V KAIROS Hull #0235
Hey Neil, Its been a few years since you wrote about your rewire and doing 4 6v Dyno batteries. Im about to order the same batteries to my newly refurbished battery box. I was wondering how the Dyno's held up for you.
Thanks, Gary
"Holiday"
Gary Matthesen
"Holiday"
1987 #50646
Oyster Bay Long Island NY