Project Dry Bilge: Re-sealing water tanks?

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FlyMeAway
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Project Dry Bilge: Re-sealing water tanks?

I'm nearing the end of a year-long crusade to get a dry-ish bilge (e.g., moist is ok but 2 inches of water is not). After setting Spar-Tite (great product!), eliminating some leaky fittings, and tightening a bunch of hose clamps, I have two sources of water left: the water tanks (fixable) and the inside of the mast (harder).

The water tanks leak through their tops every time I fill them. I am wondering what others have done to fix this, as I can't imagine it is only my problem.

Will gently tightening the tops work? Do I need leverage? Should I use plumbing tape? 4200 (would prefer not to)? What works?

David
s/v Portmanteau
Hull #2133 -- 2003 MKII
Seattle, WA

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LCBrandt
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David, I put a bead of 3M 5200 around the threads of the access port covers. Usually 5200 is a permanent adhesive, but the poly plastic construction of the tanks doesn't accept it very well, and so it is readily 'breakable' when it comes time to remove the access covers.

Larry Brandt
S/V High Flight #2109
Pacific Northwest, PDX-based
2002 C-36 mkII SR/FK M35B
 

FlyMeAway
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Thanks Larry -- working with 5200 sounds like it would work, but I think I'd use it as a last resort. Did you try other things first that weren't effective, so I know what not to try?

David
s/v Portmanteau
Hull #2133 -- 2003 MKII
Seattle, WA

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Nimue
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I did the same but with 4200. Works.

Jason V
Vancouver, BC, Canada

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SailorJackson
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If you have an air conditioner in the boat it will squeeze water out of the air via the evaporator heat exchanger. That water goes to the bilge.

Greg Jackson
SV Jacqui Marie
2004 C36, MKII
tall rig, wing keel,

iamav56
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Posts: 54

I recently contacted the manufacturer-Ronco Plastics in SoCal and had them send me 4 cover "O" rings (1 spare). I think the bill was around $6 including shipping (US MAIL).

Mark Kozy
"COLDWATER"
1999 C36 MK2 #1742 FK/M35B
Vallejo Yacht Club-Oldest on the West Coast
Boat lives in Marina del Rey, CA (SOCAL)
I live in Placerville, CA (NORCAL)

jmcelwee
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You should also check to make sure your vent lines are clear and the screens are unblocked. I had a similar problem for a while, but it was just because my vent screens had become gunked up, so I would end up pressurizing the tank when I filled it.

Josh McElwee
Sailing from East Greenwich, RI
2000 C36 MKII, M35B, "Chinook", Hull#1900

jmcelwee
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Also, keep us updated on your mission. I've been on a similar mission, with mixed results so far. For me, it's pretty much 99% a problem with water coming down the mast, so I'm pulling the mast this winter, and seeing what MacGuyver-esq fixes I might be able to come up with to prevent the majority of water coming down.

I'd also be interested in your experience with the spar-tite. Easy to use? Effective? Worth it?

Josh McElwee
Sailing from East Greenwich, RI
2000 C36 MKII, M35B, "Chinook", Hull#1900

caprice 1050
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I have a different people keeping my bilge dry. When the bilge pump stops pumping the water in the hose runs back into the bilge and the pump goes on again. This keeps happening on and on until I vacuum all the water out. I am thinking of putting a check valve in the line to stop the water from running back into the bilge after the pump stops.

__/)__/)__/)__Capt Mike__/)__/)__/)__
Punta Gorda Florida
1990 Std WK M35 Hull #1050

FlyMeAway
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[QUOTE=jmcelwee;19829]You should also check to make sure your vent lines are clear and the screens are unblocked. I had a similar problem for a while, but it was just because my vent screens had become gunked up, so I would end up pressurizing the tank when I filled it.[/QUOTE]

Where are the screens? This does sound like what is happening in my tanks.

David
s/v Portmanteau
Hull #2133 -- 2003 MKII
Seattle, WA

dpower
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I believe he is referring to the "screens" that are inside the vent fittings at thetransom of the boat. On ours, they are both on the starboard side of the boat. I believe their intended purpose is to keep critters from finding a way in and to prevent hives, etc. from forming. You can remove the vent hose from inside that lazarette under the stern seat/access.

David S. Power
Two If By Sea #1687
Burnt Store Marina
Punta Gorda, FL

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deising
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[QUOTE=caprice 1050;19834]I have a different people keeping my bilge dry. When the bilge pump stops pumping the water in the hose runs back into the bilge and the pump goes on again. This keeps happening on and on until I vacuum all the water out. I am thinking of putting a check valve in the line to stop the water from running back into the bilge after the pump stops.[/QUOTE]

Mike, our boat had a check valve right after the bilge pump and I knew from other sailors' shared wisdom that it is not really a good idea. Before I got around to removing it, however, the reason became quite apparent. The pump cycled on and stayed on a long time with no water being pumped out the hose, because the check valve had stuck closed. The bilge pump pressure is not very high and was not enough to unstick the valve.

FWIW, we never have a dry bilge except in the winter when we might go many weeks with no rain and have low humidity, as you well know, neighbor.

Duane Ising - Past Commodore (2011-2012)
s/v Diva Di
1999 Catalina 36 Hull #1777
Std rig; wing keel, M35B, Delta (45#)
Punta Gorda, FL
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/diva-di/

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baysailor2000
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A fast fix would be to raise the height of the float switch.This will not eliminate the water in the bilge - but will keep the pump from cycling and wearing out until you find a solution. An other solution would be to replace the hose with a smaller diameter hose so that the volume of the water running back would be less.

Haro Bayandorian, 1999 C36 MKII, Sail La Vie #1787, M35B,
Coyote Point, San Mateo, CA.

jmcelwee
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Yep, those are the screens I was referring to.

Josh McElwee
Sailing from East Greenwich, RI
2000 C36 MKII, M35B, "Chinook", Hull#1900

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plaineolde
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Something I'm considering to get that last bit 'o water, is a small bilge pump, like the one in the shower sump (Rule 500?) placed as far aft in the bilge as possible. I want to run the hose in a vented loop high under the galley then down and plumb it into the sink drain. I wouldn't do that for the main bilge pump, but I don't see a problem for a 'nuisance water' pump.

Opinions????

Gary and Cathy Price
1997 C36 Mk II Tall Rig/Wing Keel Imagine...
Hull # 1617
Worton Creek, Md.
Northern Chesapeake Bay

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Nimue
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I put an anti-siphon loop in the bilge pump line right outboard of the dinette backrests in the same compartment where the fuel/waste hoses run down. This makes only a very tiny amount of water run back to the bilge. I suppose a check valve would help too. In either case your are screwed on getting a 100% dry bilge as no bilge pump can suck down that low. The only way to get a dry bilge is to stop water coming in in the first place.

Someone else asked about Spartite - great product but not designed to keep water out of the boat. It is designed to replace the wooden wedges that you used to use to locate the mast in the partners. IT is not particularly UV resistant and the installation is designed not to bond with the mast for later removal. A good mast boot, whatever that may be, is required over spar tite.

Now, one place where spartite might be quite interesting is if you could build a dam and find a way to pour the blue goop inside the mast just above the deck... That could be useful in channeling water out of the mast before entering the boat, if done right.

Jason V
Vancouver, BC, Canada

BudStreet
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[quote=plaineolde;19840]Something I'm considering to get that last bit 'o water, is a small bilge pump, like the one in the shower sump (Rule 500?) placed as far aft in the bilge as possible. I want to run the hose in a vented loop high under the galley then down and plumb it into the sink drain. I wouldn't do that for the main bilge pump, but I don't see a problem for a 'nuisance water' pump.

Opinions????[/quote]

Gary, I did exactly this right at the back of the bilge, used a Sahara 500 pump with a built in float switch. The "sahara" name supposedly means it will pump dry but it doesn't. It gets more water out than the big pump does but still leaves a fair bit. I put a vented loop in the locker, only about 3 feet of hose to it and it works but still lets some water run back into the bilge. Whale makes a small cylindrical pump that looks like it would get more than this one does as the pickup is very shallow, I think it would fit in the aft section of the bilge.

I looked into pumps that will drain everything, they are available but very expensive. I just decided it's not worth it since we are in fresh water and just don't have the issues that salt water sailors do. I flush it with fresh hose water whenever we fill the water tanks and it keeps it clean enough.

Here's one that uses a wicking pickup and a special pump to get it dry:
[URL]http://www.aridbilge.com/[/URL]

The price was eye-watering after I finally found a dealer with a price shown online. I think they're mainly used by the guys with the layers of gold neck chains who own the big stinkers.

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TomSoko
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Gary,
I also installed a smaller bilge pump in the lowest part of the bilge, and moved the OEM (larger) bilge pump forward one section. Made a big difference. Short run to the vented loop next to the galley sink with small diameter hose resulted in very little backwash. Not sure teeing into the sink drain is a good idea? Article with pix:
[url]http://www.c36ia.com/node/944[/url]
Hope this helps.

Tom Sokoloski
C36/375IA Past Commodore
Noank, CT

jmcelwee
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Posts: 102

Hmmmm...that's an interesting thought on the spartite.

Has anyone else ever (successfully) created a 'plug' like this in the mast?

Josh McElwee
Sailing from East Greenwich, RI
2000 C36 MKII, M35B, "Chinook", Hull#1900

tomfoolery
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There is a thread or two in archives about this. I will see if I can find it

Tom Irwin
North Saanich, BC, Canada
1983 Catalina 30 - #3134
Until June 10, 2013
Future Catalina 36 MK II owner

tomfoolery
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Sept 2011 post , I know there is a way to link my reply to refer to the link to this thread but I can't recall how to do it. It deals with the furling mast but the principle would apply to any mast except you would have to cut an oval hole in the mast above the deck about the same size of a halyard exit in order to access the mast cavity. Food for thought....

Peter Taylor
Ensign

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Melbourne Australia
Posts: 84
How to Seal the Charleston Furling Mast
The one disappointment I have with my 2005 Mk11, with a Charleston Furling mast, is the constant water in the bilge. I have read numerous theories in this forum on possible causes and solutions.
If you have a look at the cross section of the extrusion (in the Catalinas 36 Furling Mast Manual available from Charleston Spars) you will see it comprises two cavities.
A relatively small amount of water can enter the forward cavity from halyard access points however the main entry point is the aft cavity through the sail furling slot which runs the length of the mast above the furling screw.
I guess a small amout may enter at the masthead where there is a cover plate held by 6 screws.

Anyway the advice I received from Jim Kulibert at Charleston is to install a water dam in both cavities below the furling screw as follows:

Quote:
As you know there are two places for a water dam; forward and aft cavities. The easiest is to pull the mast and insert from the bottom. What you are doing is creating a water dam and drilling a limber hole just above it. We use two pieces of ¼” sheet PVC plastic about 1.5 inches apart that loosely fit the inside of the cavities and fill the center space with expanding foam. You will have to use bolts to hold them spaced apart and rigid.

If you don’t want to pull the mast, you can drill a 3/8” or ½” hole and 6 – 8 inches above the other one, push a balloon in the holes, inflate the balloons and with another hole in the center squirt the foam. A limber hole will also have to be drilled above the foam. It is sometimes difficult to know where the foam has stopped
My comment on this approach is that it is rather difficult to do with the mast in the boat and somewhat imprecise using two balloons to act as stoppers for foam injected into holes drilled into the mast as Jim has pointred out, Needless to say I havent done this.The option of putting dams in place with the mast out of the boat seems reasonable.

I might also add here that some time back - John Reiman posted his approach to solving the the problem as follows:

Quote:
I am the one who installed a dam. To do this, you have to remove the furling drum. This is an easy operation and is pretty intuitive. One detail though: There's one part that you have to make SURE doesn't fall down when the drum is removed. I have a few photos that I'll be happy to send to anybody who feels they can use them. (Anyway, it's good to know how to remove the drum to service once a year or so.)

With the drum removed, just rough cut a piece of styrofoam and push in down below the drum. I then cut a piece of plastic to lay on top of the foam and caulked around the edges. I think a small hand-held tube of caulking would be better - easier to reach in there with. Also, put the foam in on an angle - downward slope towards wherever you plan to drill the weep hole. Then drill a little weep hole just above the lowest part of the dam.

This helped, but it didn't completely solve my problem because the channel in the front of the mast through which the wires ran also send water down into the bilge.

I just had my mast replaced and the new one comes with a dam in both parts of it. They also have a clever way of running the wire with an "s" curve to prevent water from running down the wire.
As John notes and as shown in the Charleston Manual - there is a dam now installed in the newer mast sections.

Hope this helps.

PS. Can someone help me - I am not sure how to get the furling screw (drum) out of the mast. Has any one done this?
__________________

Peter Taylor
Melbourne Australia
Altair #2227
2005 C36 Mk11

Tom Irwin
North Saanich, BC, Canada
1983 Catalina 30 - #3134
Until June 10, 2013
Future Catalina 36 MK II owner

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plaineolde
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Tom. RE: T-ing into the sink drain. I'd not do that for the primary bilge pump, since in an emergency you want to be SURE that water is going overboard. But I've not been able to think of a downside for the mini bilge pump, since that's really just there to get as much of the standing water as possible. My thinking is that, with a vented loop as close to the underside of the counter top as possible, right on centerline, the chances of any sort of siphon would be slim; or no more than the chance of getting water through the sink drains.

I'm not certain there isn't some hidden 'gotcha' in my thinking and would sure like to hear it if there is. btw, I always close all through hulls when leaving the boat, so again, seems safe enough to me. But, I've been wrong before.;)

Edit: one downside does come to mind. If the mini pump is not turned off when the through hull for the sink drains is closed, you could have a mess on your hands, as it would eventually back up through the sinks and get all over the place. I'd definitely put it on a separate circuit and maybe only have it as a manual pump.

Still thinking.....

Gary and Cathy Price
1997 C36 Mk II Tall Rig/Wing Keel Imagine...
Hull # 1617
Worton Creek, Md.
Northern Chesapeake Bay

BudStreet
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Posts: 1127

If your vented loop failed, which they do now and then, could you get a siphon going since that pump is sitting well below the waterline? I'm not sure how that would start though. Our pump has a built in float switch and came with a 3 way switch as well, I usually just run it manually after a rain and leave it switched on auto after that. I ran the hose out the transom, wasn't that hard to do though it made a vented loop essential, lots of water in that hose to drain back. I originally had a flapper valve in there but it was flaky, stuck shut a lot of the time but zero drain back as it was right at the pump.

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plaineolde
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yeah, the more I think about it the more I think running it to the transom is the best idea.

thanks for the input.

Gary and Cathy Price
1997 C36 Mk II Tall Rig/Wing Keel Imagine...
Hull # 1617
Worton Creek, Md.
Northern Chesapeake Bay

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