How can I tell if my engine mounts need replacing? Engine is running smoothly, but there is a lot of vibration at cruising rpms. Is there a source for the original engine mounts?
That goes for me too. The transmission rattle disappears at about 1200 RPM. At idle the engine vibrates and so that the transmission. The belt also vibrates at idle. Do I need new engine mounts or is this normal. I recentley noticed - while at the doc and while the engine was at idle - at the waterline the water has small ripples due to engine vibrating and vibrating the hull hence causing the ripples.
On the recommendation of several fellow members, we replaced our worn mounts with the Vetus K75 mounts ([url]http://www.vetus.com/engines-and-around-the-engine/flexible-engine-mount...). They did not require any modification, and seemed to tame the vibration considerably. If you do a web search you will find quite a few suppliers.
—
Matthew Chachère
s/v¡Que Chévere!
(Formerly 1985 C36 MKI #466 tall rig fin keel M25)
2006 Catalina Morgan 440 #30.
Homeported in eastern Long Island, NY
Guys
A while back a rope got tangled around my prop and nearly stalled the engine. - I was able to get it out of gear pretty quickly. After I cut the rope away and restarted the engine it nearly jumped out of the boat with extreme vibration - right over the rev range.
It was clear that the torque had pulled the motor aft and "unsettled" the engine mounts. The mounts themselves appeared in perfect condition with absolutely no oil or visible wear.
I slipped the boat, had the prop and shaft both checked (all OK) and replaced all 4 mounts with the original westebeke-universal units. I also added a split coupler (which was fitted and faced to the shaft), replaced the cutlass bearing (and also put a new bellows on the PSS seal) and aligned the engine/drive line.
As a result you can balance a coin on the engine - pretty much at all revs.
While the vibration to which you each refer, may be from a bent prop, bent shaft, worn cutlass bearing, engine out of alignment or fuel/compression issues there is no doubt that the mounts are a critical component.
Having read numerous posts about using Vetus and other mounts - my experience is that the OEM mounts are as good as you can get if attention is give to all elements of the drive line.
The original mounts are available from Marine Diesel Direct/Torressen etc. and listed as Isolators, Front 40510 - rear mounts are the same.
Hope this helps
—
Peter Taylor Melbourne Australia. Altair #2227 2005 C36 Mk11
With regards to all the upgrades you did, might I ask how much it came to?
I want to replace the engine mounts but I would like to do also the cutlass bearing and new bellows on the PSS seal.
What is the split coupler for? I look on the internet but the pics I have seen only seems to be a connector :confused:
I am also convinced that my drive line is bent, as on every 360 degree turn it will make a weird vibration sound, always at exactly the same point, although you can turn the shaft easily, but on that point it makes an awful vibration :confused:
Is it possible to remove the shaft without removing the engine from the boat?
Andres - The only way that the shaft can be removed is to cut it off and pull it out from the back. You must buy new shaft and the coupler. If the shaft is bent - then might as well cut it off. You will have to remove the rudder for the shaft to come out easily. Engine or transmission does not need to be removed. This is a standard change that needs to be done every 10 years. You may consider replacing the stuffing box and the hose and the cutlass bearing.
The cost for the work done on my boat as described in my original post was as follows: (Aust. Dollars)
Remove and check prop shaft in lathe: $200
Split shaft coupling (from Buck Algonquin): $250
Supply and fit original engine mounts and align drive train: $1000
Supply and fit cutlass bearing: $200
PSS Bellows Kit: $80
Have a look at the discussion on shaft couplers- as there are some differing opinions. Perhaps one of the best informed contributors to Catalina Forums is Rod Collins or Mainesail.
In any case reliable coupling requires high tolerance and couplers are best if machined for an exact fit (both diameter and face alignment with the gear box coupling- termed fit and face). When removed, internal rust and corrosion is disturbed and in many cases the coupler will not be able to be refitted.
On the other hand a split coupler is just as the name implies and is held on to the shaft by 4 compression bolts. It can thus be disassembled and removed.
Both types of couplers also have a key and keyway and a locking screw to further ensure capture on the shaft.
As far as removal of the prop shaft is concerned there is quite a bit of discussion on the subject and in my experience, once the coupler was removed, the shaft could in fact be withdrawn without removing the rudder and both it and the cutlass bearing replaced with the rudder in situ.
Straightening a "bent" shaft is a relatively common marine engineering process but it might be cheaper to simply but a new shaft (about ($300).
Also check your prop. I actually put a new standard 3 blade 15x9 prop on as well ($500) as mine was damaged.
Regards
Peter
—
Peter Taylor Melbourne Australia. Altair #2227 2005 C36 Mk11
The "stuffing box" is the assembly in the hull through which the propeller shaft passes as it enters the hull. It contains a packing gland that acts as a seal. Genreally, there are 2 types: drip or dripless. The drip type will allow outside water to drip slowly around the seal to lubricate the spinning shaft through the seal. The dripless is just that. There is no water that drips into the boat. I do not know how the lubrication process works. The drip type does require servicing periodically by replacing the packing material which creates the seal.
—
David S. Power Two If By Sea #1687 Burnt Store Marina Punta Gorda, FL
There was this same question about removing the shaft on co.com about a month ago. The answer is that it CAN BE DONE, but you have to remove the cutlass bearing first. It's tight, but can be done.
What David says about the stuffing box types is correct as far as it goes. However, the bellows for the PSS has a service life designated by the manufacturer, I believe it is 6 years. It costs more to replace that bellows than it does to buy an entire brand new Buck-Algonquin stuffing box and GoreTex packing.
If you do not replace the bellows and it fails, or if the bellows gets torn by some other process, which has happened, you will have a catastrophic leak capable of sinking the boat. At a minimum, if you can stop the leak, you will have no engine power as the shaft will not likely be able to turn.
A standard stuffing box is virtually dripless when you use the modern GoreTex packing and it is extremely unlikely that it will ever cause a leak as potentially catastrophic as the PSS can. We had a PSS in our boat when we bought it, the bellows was well beyond its service life and I did not like the risk with the PSS unit. I replaced it with a Buck stuffing box using GoreTex packing. It is dripless at rest and almost dripless while motoring. I can make it dripless totally but there's no point given our particular boat and the way it is set up.
There are many happy users of the PSS units but you should be aware of the pros and cons of both types and make an informed decision as to which way to go is best for you.
Thanks guys, I suffer from a high degree of ignorance on boats all together, I am on the learning proces.....
Now, I like the idea of installing the Buck-Algonquin stuffing box, but I see that there are multiple versions, and I am too ignorant to make an educated selection unfortunatelly.
[QUOTE=baysailor2000;19349]Andres - The only way that the shaft can be removed is to cut it off and pull it out from the back. You must buy new shaft and the coupler. If the shaft is bent - then might as well cut it off. You will have to remove the rudder for the shaft to come out easily. Engine or transmission does not need to be removed. This is a standard change that needs to be done every 10 years. You may consider replacing the stuffing box and the hose and the cutlass bearing.[/QUOTE]
Are you saying that replacing the prop shaft is "a standard change that needs to be done every 10 year?" If so, I would say that that's nutty! Why would you think so?
Jviss - In 10 years the stuffing box hose will need to be replaced as it will have dried out and may become brittle and unsafe to use the boat. You may consider only changing the hose - but in my case I was unable to unscrew the nuts - so I replaced the complete stuffing box with the hose and the clamps. As far as the propeller shaft - in 10 years the area where the flax has been riding becomes worn out and uneven. If you have stainless steel shaft - then it may have developed corrosion as well. In my case it was not possible to disconnect the coupler from the shaft - so the shaft had to be cut and removed. In doing that I also discovered that the area of shaft where the cutlass bearing was also was worn out. So it was time to replace the shaft and a new cutlass bearing.
[QUOTE=baysailor2000;19427]Jviss - In 10 years the stuffing box hose will need to be replaced as it will have dried out and may become brittle and unsafe to use the boat. You may consider only changing the hose - but in my case I was unable to unscrew the nuts - so I replaced the complete stuffing box with the hose and the clamps. As far as the propeller shaft - in 10 years the area where the flax has been riding becomes worn out and uneven. If you have stainless steel shaft - then it may have developed corrosion as well. In my case it was not possible to disconnect the coupler from the shaft - so the shaft had to be cut and removed. In doing that I also discovered that the area of shaft where the cutlass bearing was also was worn out. So it was time to replace the shaft and a new cutlass bearing.[/QUOTE]
I see. Sounds like a maintenance and corrosion issue to me. I was questioning mostly the advice you were giving: "this is a standard change." No it's not! Mine has a bronze shaft, incidentally. It's not perfect, but it works fine and is as old as the boat, 29. I agree, the hose should be replaced periodically, but as you know, it's not an easy job.
Jviss - Mine was a bronze shaft as well. It was not possible to remove the coupling. The 2 holding screws sheered off when they were removed. So it had to be cut and removed. The areas under the cutlass bearing was worn and so it was a smaller diameter. No boatyard wanted to remove the coupling - I guess they already knew that it could not be done. Have you replaced the hose on your stuffing box in 29 years? Were you able to remove the coupling? If so then you are among few lucky ones.
[QUOTE=baysailor2000;19455]Jviss - Mine was a bronze shaft as well. It was not possible to remove the coupling. The 2 holding screws sheered off when they were removed. So it had to be cut and removed. The areas under the cutlass bearing was worn and so it was a smaller diameter. No boatyard wanted to remove the coupling - I guess they already knew that it could not be done. Have you replaced the hose on your stuffing box in 29 years? Were you able to remove the coupling? If so then you are among few lucky ones.[/QUOTE]
I was able to remove the coupling about 2004. The holding screws were square head screws, as I recall. I have a set of old-faishoned, square head wrenches for these. They came out, with some wiggling and PB Blaster or Kroil, as I recall.
I then pressed the coupling off the shaft by using the mating coupling on the gear as a puller, inserting a nut as a spacer on the shaft end and re-making the coupling with the four bolts.
However, that year I pulled the motor, and after pulling the prop the shaft slid out, up into the boat.
I've never replaced that hose in 13 years, and I'm guessing it is original. It's on the list for this winter.
Do you still have the pieces of your cut, bronze shaft? I do some metalwork, and I'd happily pay shipping if you care to donate it!
Jviss - Unfortunately I cut the shaft into 3 pieces to remove it and sent it for recycling. I fought hard not to have to cut it specially when I realized I could not get another bronze shaft. I had made a device to remove the shaft from coupling similar to what you are describing. After both screws sheered off - I drilled them out - but the shaft would no way come out.
That goes for me too. The transmission rattle disappears at about 1200 RPM. At idle the engine vibrates and so that the transmission. The belt also vibrates at idle. Do I need new engine mounts or is this normal. I recentley noticed - while at the doc and while the engine was at idle - at the waterline the water has small ripples due to engine vibrating and vibrating the hull hence causing the ripples.
Haro Bayandorian, 1999 C36 MKII, Sail La Vie #1787, M35B,
Coyote Point, San Mateo, CA.
Hi
I am also trying to get mine replaced, but the only information I found is here:
[url]http://www.westerbeke.com/products/ProductPartsListManual.aspx?ManualTyp...
The site does contain information to find a dealer near your location.
Regards
Andres
Andres & Arantzazu
S/V "Carpe Diem"
Hull: 1773
1999 C36 mkII
Hong Kong
http://www.abclubhk.com/
If you try the search function, you'll see several threads on this subject with discussions relevant to your questions, such as
[url]http://www.c36ia.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182&highlight=engine+mount[...
[url]http://www.c36ia.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1104&highlight=engine+mount...
On the recommendation of several fellow members, we replaced our worn mounts with the Vetus K75 mounts ([url]http://www.vetus.com/engines-and-around-the-engine/flexible-engine-mount...). They did not require any modification, and seemed to tame the vibration considerably. If you do a web search you will find quite a few suppliers.
Matthew Chachère
s/v ¡Que Chévere!
(Formerly 1985 C36 MKI #466 tall rig fin keel M25)
2006 Catalina Morgan 440 #30.
Homeported in eastern Long Island, NY
Guys
A while back a rope got tangled around my prop and nearly stalled the engine. - I was able to get it out of gear pretty quickly. After I cut the rope away and restarted the engine it nearly jumped out of the boat with extreme vibration - right over the rev range.
It was clear that the torque had pulled the motor aft and "unsettled" the engine mounts. The mounts themselves appeared in perfect condition with absolutely no oil or visible wear.
I slipped the boat, had the prop and shaft both checked (all OK) and replaced all 4 mounts with the original westebeke-universal units. I also added a split coupler (which was fitted and faced to the shaft), replaced the cutlass bearing (and also put a new bellows on the PSS seal) and aligned the engine/drive line.
As a result you can balance a coin on the engine - pretty much at all revs.
While the vibration to which you each refer, may be from a bent prop, bent shaft, worn cutlass bearing, engine out of alignment or fuel/compression issues there is no doubt that the mounts are a critical component.
Having read numerous posts about using Vetus and other mounts - my experience is that the OEM mounts are as good as you can get if attention is give to all elements of the drive line.
The original mounts are available from Marine Diesel Direct/Torressen etc. and listed as Isolators, Front 40510 - rear mounts are the same.
Hope this helps
Peter Taylor Melbourne Australia. Altair #2227 2005 C36 Mk11
Hi Peter
With regards to all the upgrades you did, might I ask how much it came to?
I want to replace the engine mounts but I would like to do also the cutlass bearing and new bellows on the PSS seal.
What is the split coupler for? I look on the internet but the pics I have seen only seems to be a connector :confused:
I am also convinced that my drive line is bent, as on every 360 degree turn it will make a weird vibration sound, always at exactly the same point, although you can turn the shaft easily, but on that point it makes an awful vibration :confused:
Is it possible to remove the shaft without removing the engine from the boat?
Regards
Andres
Andres & Arantzazu
S/V "Carpe Diem"
Hull: 1773
1999 C36 mkII
Hong Kong
http://www.abclubhk.com/
Andres - The only way that the shaft can be removed is to cut it off and pull it out from the back. You must buy new shaft and the coupler. If the shaft is bent - then might as well cut it off. You will have to remove the rudder for the shaft to come out easily. Engine or transmission does not need to be removed. This is a standard change that needs to be done every 10 years. You may consider replacing the stuffing box and the hose and the cutlass bearing.
Haro Bayandorian, 1999 C36 MKII, Sail La Vie #1787, M35B,
Coyote Point, San Mateo, CA.
Hello Andres
The cost for the work done on my boat as described in my original post was as follows: (Aust. Dollars)
Remove and check prop shaft in lathe: $200
Split shaft coupling (from Buck Algonquin): $250
Supply and fit original engine mounts and align drive train: $1000
Supply and fit cutlass bearing: $200
PSS Bellows Kit: $80
Have a look at the discussion on shaft couplers- as there are some differing opinions. Perhaps one of the best informed contributors to Catalina Forums is Rod Collins or Mainesail.
In any case reliable coupling requires high tolerance and couplers are best if machined for an exact fit (both diameter and face alignment with the gear box coupling- termed fit and face). When removed, internal rust and corrosion is disturbed and in many cases the coupler will not be able to be refitted.
On the other hand a split coupler is just as the name implies and is held on to the shaft by 4 compression bolts. It can thus be disassembled and removed.
Both types of couplers also have a key and keyway and a locking screw to further ensure capture on the shaft.
As far as removal of the prop shaft is concerned there is quite a bit of discussion on the subject and in my experience, once the coupler was removed, the shaft could in fact be withdrawn without removing the rudder and both it and the cutlass bearing replaced with the rudder in situ.
Straightening a "bent" shaft is a relatively common marine engineering process but it might be cheaper to simply but a new shaft (about ($300).
Also check your prop. I actually put a new standard 3 blade 15x9 prop on as well ($500) as mine was damaged.
Regards
Peter
Peter Taylor Melbourne Australia. Altair #2227 2005 C36 Mk11
Thanks guys for the advice
Any recommendations about the type of shaft replacement?
What is the "stuffing box"?
As for the propeller, I have ordered a feathering prop from Kiwi Props as it seems that many of you had them quite happily.
Regards
Andres
Andres & Arantzazu
S/V "Carpe Diem"
Hull: 1773
1999 C36 mkII
Hong Kong
http://www.abclubhk.com/
The "stuffing box" is the assembly in the hull through which the propeller shaft passes as it enters the hull. It contains a packing gland that acts as a seal. Genreally, there are 2 types: drip or dripless. The drip type will allow outside water to drip slowly around the seal to lubricate the spinning shaft through the seal. The dripless is just that. There is no water that drips into the boat. I do not know how the lubrication process works. The drip type does require servicing periodically by replacing the packing material which creates the seal.
David S. Power
Two If By Sea #1687
Burnt Store Marina
Punta Gorda, FL
There was this same question about removing the shaft on co.com about a month ago. The answer is that it CAN BE DONE, but you have to remove the cutlass bearing first. It's tight, but can be done.
Stu Jackson, C34IA Secretary, C34 #224, 1986, SR/FK, M25 engine, Rocna 10 (22#)
What David says about the stuffing box types is correct as far as it goes. However, the bellows for the PSS has a service life designated by the manufacturer, I believe it is 6 years. It costs more to replace that bellows than it does to buy an entire brand new Buck-Algonquin stuffing box and GoreTex packing.
If you do not replace the bellows and it fails, or if the bellows gets torn by some other process, which has happened, you will have a catastrophic leak capable of sinking the boat. At a minimum, if you can stop the leak, you will have no engine power as the shaft will not likely be able to turn.
A standard stuffing box is virtually dripless when you use the modern GoreTex packing and it is extremely unlikely that it will ever cause a leak as potentially catastrophic as the PSS can. We had a PSS in our boat when we bought it, the bellows was well beyond its service life and I did not like the risk with the PSS unit. I replaced it with a Buck stuffing box using GoreTex packing. It is dripless at rest and almost dripless while motoring. I can make it dripless totally but there's no point given our particular boat and the way it is set up.
There are many happy users of the PSS units but you should be aware of the pros and cons of both types and make an informed decision as to which way to go is best for you.
Thanks guys, I suffer from a high degree of ignorance on boats all together, I am on the learning proces.....
Now, I like the idea of installing the Buck-Algonquin stuffing box, but I see that there are multiple versions, and I am too ignorant to make an educated selection unfortunatelly.
Regards
Andres
Andres & Arantzazu
S/V "Carpe Diem"
Hull: 1773
1999 C36 mkII
Hong Kong
http://www.abclubhk.com/
Andre, your C36 manual should have a very good description of the stuffing box. ours does, and I'm sure yours does, too.
Here's a discussion about stuffing boxes with some links to Maine Sail's writeup, too.
[url]http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Stuffing_box_packing[/url]
Stu Jackson, C34IA Secretary, C34 #224, 1986, SR/FK, M25 engine, Rocna 10 (22#)
[QUOTE=baysailor2000;19349]Andres - The only way that the shaft can be removed is to cut it off and pull it out from the back. You must buy new shaft and the coupler. If the shaft is bent - then might as well cut it off. You will have to remove the rudder for the shaft to come out easily. Engine or transmission does not need to be removed. This is a standard change that needs to be done every 10 years. You may consider replacing the stuffing box and the hose and the cutlass bearing.[/QUOTE]
Are you saying that replacing the prop shaft is "a standard change that needs to be done every 10 year?" If so, I would say that that's nutty! Why would you think so?
Jviss - In 10 years the stuffing box hose will need to be replaced as it will have dried out and may become brittle and unsafe to use the boat. You may consider only changing the hose - but in my case I was unable to unscrew the nuts - so I replaced the complete stuffing box with the hose and the clamps. As far as the propeller shaft - in 10 years the area where the flax has been riding becomes worn out and uneven. If you have stainless steel shaft - then it may have developed corrosion as well. In my case it was not possible to disconnect the coupler from the shaft - so the shaft had to be cut and removed. In doing that I also discovered that the area of shaft where the cutlass bearing was also was worn out. So it was time to replace the shaft and a new cutlass bearing.
Haro Bayandorian, 1999 C36 MKII, Sail La Vie #1787, M35B,
Coyote Point, San Mateo, CA.
[QUOTE=baysailor2000;19427]Jviss - In 10 years the stuffing box hose will need to be replaced as it will have dried out and may become brittle and unsafe to use the boat. You may consider only changing the hose - but in my case I was unable to unscrew the nuts - so I replaced the complete stuffing box with the hose and the clamps. As far as the propeller shaft - in 10 years the area where the flax has been riding becomes worn out and uneven. If you have stainless steel shaft - then it may have developed corrosion as well. In my case it was not possible to disconnect the coupler from the shaft - so the shaft had to be cut and removed. In doing that I also discovered that the area of shaft where the cutlass bearing was also was worn out. So it was time to replace the shaft and a new cutlass bearing.[/QUOTE]
I see. Sounds like a maintenance and corrosion issue to me. I was questioning mostly the advice you were giving: "this is a standard change." No it's not! Mine has a bronze shaft, incidentally. It's not perfect, but it works fine and is as old as the boat, 29. I agree, the hose should be replaced periodically, but as you know, it's not an easy job.
Jviss - Mine was a bronze shaft as well. It was not possible to remove the coupling. The 2 holding screws sheered off when they were removed. So it had to be cut and removed. The areas under the cutlass bearing was worn and so it was a smaller diameter. No boatyard wanted to remove the coupling - I guess they already knew that it could not be done. Have you replaced the hose on your stuffing box in 29 years? Were you able to remove the coupling? If so then you are among few lucky ones.
Haro Bayandorian, 1999 C36 MKII, Sail La Vie #1787, M35B,
Coyote Point, San Mateo, CA.
[QUOTE=baysailor2000;19455]Jviss - Mine was a bronze shaft as well. It was not possible to remove the coupling. The 2 holding screws sheered off when they were removed. So it had to be cut and removed. The areas under the cutlass bearing was worn and so it was a smaller diameter. No boatyard wanted to remove the coupling - I guess they already knew that it could not be done. Have you replaced the hose on your stuffing box in 29 years? Were you able to remove the coupling? If so then you are among few lucky ones.[/QUOTE]
I was able to remove the coupling about 2004. The holding screws were square head screws, as I recall. I have a set of old-faishoned, square head wrenches for these. They came out, with some wiggling and PB Blaster or Kroil, as I recall.
I then pressed the coupling off the shaft by using the mating coupling on the gear as a puller, inserting a nut as a spacer on the shaft end and re-making the coupling with the four bolts.
However, that year I pulled the motor, and after pulling the prop the shaft slid out, up into the boat.
I've never replaced that hose in 13 years, and I'm guessing it is original. It's on the list for this winter.
Do you still have the pieces of your cut, bronze shaft? I do some metalwork, and I'd happily pay shipping if you care to donate it!
Jviss - Unfortunately I cut the shaft into 3 pieces to remove it and sent it for recycling. I fought hard not to have to cut it specially when I realized I could not get another bronze shaft. I had made a device to remove the shaft from coupling similar to what you are describing. After both screws sheered off - I drilled them out - but the shaft would no way come out.
Haro Bayandorian, 1999 C36 MKII, Sail La Vie #1787, M35B,
Coyote Point, San Mateo, CA.
Oh, bummer! I would have loved to have that.