This from a racing guy, but I do know a thing or two about sails I think.

OEM sails are/were crap. So don't worry about comparisons. A new sail from a reputable maker will have more roach on the main (more area) and better reinforcements and cloth quality all around on both sails.

The two biggest players out there now are North and Quantum. From either of these, for a cruising sail, you will get a similar premium product. In the slight majority of cases the Q will be a bit cheaper, but it varies from loft to loft. There is a good return on investment with these guys for Grand Prix racing sails, I am less convinced for cruising sails.

The second tier, which is not far behind these two at the cruising sail level, includes a mish mash of brands: Doyle, UK Halsey, Ullman, Evolution, Pineapple, Sobstad, etc. These brands are all totally capable of making nice cruising sails at a high quality, and may save you a few bucks over North in some cases. I am partial to Doyle but it really depends on your local loft.

The best way to get good service and a quality product is to shop locally, meet the sailmakers in person, and pick one that you like. This will become important when the sail needs a bit of tweaking at time of delivery, as is often the case (things like raising the clew an inch to clear the dodger better, or getting the wrong luff slides, or changing the type of genoa tack fitting etc.). You do want that local connection if at all possible. Many places have non-brand-name sailmaker who are very good at this also.

So that is my main recommendation, shop local and pick someone you are comfortable with.

Now the flip side to that, as the Catalina 36 is such a common and standardized boat, we are certainly able to shop mail order with some degree of confidence.

Mail order houses, typically building sails in China/hong Kong, or Sri Lanka, are quite common. These brands include North Cruising Direct, Neil Pryde, Lee, Rolly Tasker, and at least a couple more that I can't think of now. North Cruising Direct actually builds a lot of sails for North American lofts of North Sails, so these can be a good deal. Neil Pryde seems to be hit and miss - I have seen some nice sails from them but they also build a lot of OEM Catalina and Beneteau sails, which are total crap. Same with Lee. Rolly Tasker for some reason seems to build pretty high quality stuff, in terms of construction details and I would probalby lean this way if I was going mail order. For locally sourced Rolly Tasker sails, google National Sail Supply in florida, they have standard designs that look ok to me.

HOWEVER, from a performance point of view, all of the mail order houses tend to build sails 'small', very little main sail roach, short on the foot, and short on the hoist. Particularly on the genoa, due to different furler setups etc, they will almost all build genoas with very conservative luff lengths so that a 'standard' design can fit all the C36s out there. So if you are concerned about getting max sail area, it can be tough to go mail order.
The other catch with mail order is that if the sail shows up wrong, the onus is on you, since you sent the measurements, and you will have to fix it. You will find that your local sailmaker is not enthusiastic about making modifications to a brand new Chinese built sail in most cases, and you can spend the money you saved quite quickly.
Oh, and there is also that whole 'buy american' thing you guys like to do, but I'm Canadian so it doesn't apply.

Oh, and on the spinnaker.

Race boats go to a 1.5 oz spinnaker when the wind is will over 20 knots TWS. A 0.8 oz spinnaker can go from a breath of wind up to 20 knots easily.

I see cruisers going 1.5 oz on spinnakers all the time, and it makes no sense. When I fly a spinnaker cruising, it is almost always light air, under 10 knots. Under 8 knots of wind a 1.5 oz spinnaker is very hard to fly, because it is so heavy. By the time it is windy enough for a 1.5 oz spin to work, most, if not all, cruisers have dropped the kite anyways! go for a 0.75 or 0.8oz cloth for the spinnaker.

If you are dead set on a more 'robust' spinnaker, on an asym you can go 0.75 for most of the spin and go 1.5oz for the first 3 panels or so of the luff. The luff sees multiple times more load than the middle of the sail on an Asym.

My own spinnaker is a 0.6oz, with 0.8oz panels on the luff near the tack and head. By the time it is getting too windy for this sail I usually don't go any slower with a genoa poled out.

That seems like some pretty good, detailed info, Jason. Thanks.

Several years ago, I elected to replace my original 8 year old 135% high-clew Genoa with a Hong-Kong made Rolly Tasker from National Sails in FL. I am far from a real expert on sails, but I was, and remain, very impressed with the quality and performance for the relatively low price. I got the foam luff to help maintain shape when partially furled, and it seems to help.

I need to replace my 11 year old main (it is long overdue), but I will likely go local for that since I want the clew cut higher to keep the boom of my high bimini and I want a Stack-Pack style arrangement.

I also agree about the cloth weight for the a-spin. Many cruisers like to go overly conservative on things, but cloth weight in a spinnaker is not a good place to do it for the reasons Jason articulated so well.

When you purchase a Main or Genny, it is pretty straight forward. However, when you go to A-Sym, it is a whole different story. I have a full spread comparing the shape,size, weight of various A-Syms recommended by six different lofts from the major lofts to several local lofts. I limited the spreadsheet to six or seven lofts but got proposals from several more. I spent hours talking to the lofts because there is so much to learn when purchasing a A-Sym as well as discussions about the best "sock" and whether the tacker is better or worse than the beads.

I still have not decided on the which loft I will use but I am leaning toward using a local loft. Again, it is all about service and knowing what is the most appropiate sailing you plan to do in the local waters. The sail you pick for Gulf states is very different from what you use in SF Bay. The local loft will actually go out to you boat and take measurements as well even install the sail for you to make sure it fits correctly.

If you want a copy of the spreadsheet, I will share it with you off-line.

Ned Black
Black Magic 2222

[QUOTE=kenstrom;7758]I'm thinnking of adding a cruising spinnaker and possibly replacing my Catalina original sails with another brand. I would likely go with 1.5 oz. nylon for the asym spinnaker, and Dacron for the main and genoa.

Any feedback on North Sails, Neil Pryde or others, and how they would compare to the original Catalina sails (anyone know who made them?) would be appreciated.[/QUOTE]

Shopping for sails can be very location specific. My boat was located in an area of the Chesapeake that is some distance from major population centers yet still had a very large sailing community and a strong base of boatyards competing for that business so everything there was about 20-30% less than other areas.

The local sail loft was affiliated with Ullman. I talked to North, Halsey and priced the "off the shelf" places. My local loft was able to deliver a new main and 140 genny, for only about a $200 premium over Sail warehouse and at a significant savings compared to North or UK Halsey. I definitely feel it was worth that premium to have the sailmaker take the measurements vs. doing it yourself through Norths program or taking what you get from a production sail outlet. If you shop around, you may be able to find one of the "Name" lofts can make a sail for your boat at a price comparable to a stock sail.

If you are comfortable taking your own measurements you might want to consider Mack sails. I've spoken with them in Annapolis and they did a great job on my MackPack lazyjack/sailcover.

I know there's some variation in quality between the cheap lofts and the premium ones, but what about the geometry?

Specifically, I had a Doyle cruising asymetric that they call the APC (Asymetric Power Cruiser). The acronym is just a marketing thing, but they did cut it pretty flat. I was suprised by how stable the sail was and how high I could go. Sailing upwind on a chute is a nice thing to do when there's little wind.

That was back in the 90's. Now I'm thinking of getting a cruising asymetric for a C36, but Doyle wants quite a premium over the middle class brands. The other guys say their sail will fly in pretty much the same way, but how do I know?

North has a nice approach, where they have all geometries lined up and show a polar for each cut. That's nice, I could just pick out the sail knowing how I'd want to use it. Problem with North is that I'd have to sell the boat in order to afford one of their sails.

G. Jackson

With A-kites, the minimum 'quality' is to make sure the sail is tri-radial.

As a rule, I think the cheaper foreign lofts build smaller flatter sails, this is one of the places they save cost as they can take quite a few yards of cloth out of the sail this way.

If you are dealing with any reputable local sailmaker, you should just be able to say, 'I want a light air reacher' or 'I want a runner' and get what you asked for. The racing cut equivalent of what you are describing above would be an "A3" in typical North Sails parlance - typically a .75 oz flatter-cut reaching spinnaker.

[quote=deising;7762]

Several years ago, I elected to replace my original 8 year old 135% high-clew Genoa with a Hong-Kong made Rolly Tasker from National Sails in FL. I am far from a real expert on sails, but I was, and remain, very impressed with the quality and performance for the relatively low price. I got the foam luff to help maintain shape when partially furled, and it seems to help.
[/quote]

Duane, we were at the boat show and talked to some sail makers and the quotes up here are $3 - $4K for a plain jane cruising 135% genoa that National sells for $1600. The prices we got included offshore built sails so it's not like we can blame high local labour costs.

Referring to this post, now that it's several years down the road, is the sail you got from National still holding up well? One sailmaker told us that foam luff tape was crap, would go all moldy and break down within a few years and wanted to sell us a sail with ropes in there instead, for a lot more money. How is the foam luff tape holding up? How wide is the luff tape you have? Does it work as advertised?

I buy locally when it makes sense, but double the price doesn't make sense at any level.

Thanks.
Bud

Hi, Bud. Our sail is holding up well and we see no deterioration with the luff foam or tape. It really has a nice shape when fully unfurled, and it roller reefs better than my OEM sail.

We'll be looking to replace our main in 2013 and will get a Stack Pack or Mack Pack style. That might well dictate using local talent.

I, too, support local business but can't abide paying 100% more for it.

Hi Bud:

In 2010 we had Ken Forsythe from K-Force Sails in Collingwood give us a quote on a 135 Genoa with sunbrella UV protection and foam luff as well as a main sail, both from Hyde Sails in the UK. We decided to go with Ken as he was the local guy and the prices were very competative and the sail cloth quoted was heavier than the other lofts were quoting. We have been very pleased with the result. You may wish to give Ken a call and ask for a quote.
You can get his contact info at the following web site: [url]http://ca.hydesails.com/[/url]

After checking National,FX,and Peak...the cheapest full batten,2 reef main is FX with the c36ia discount @ $1314...pretty good price,no idea how quality compares between the 3..probably all made by same the factory in Thailand.The Peak single batt sail is by far the cheapest ...love full batts tho and worth the $

For comparison, got a quote today from my local Doyle loft for both main and headsail.
The main durasail II, 4 batten (2 partial at bottom), 7.62 Dacron with loose foot, headboard, performance roach profile with 319 sq ft area was $2900.

The headsail 140% with 421 sq foot and 7.77 marblehead dacron is $3300.

Pretty steep - but I trust the sailmaker and like the fact that it is local.

I will get some compairson quotes and keep everyone here posted. Need to make a decision because it is an 8 week lead time.

Any advice, observations, comments are appreciated.

[quote=tgrover;11546]Hi Bud:

In 2010 we had Ken Forsythe from K-Force Sails in Collingwood give us a quote on a 135 Genoa with sunbrella UV protection and foam luff as well as a main sail, both from Hyde Sails in the UK. We decided to go with Ken as he was the local guy and the prices were very competative and the sail cloth quoted was heavier than the other lofts were quoting. We have been very pleased with the result. You may wish to give Ken a call and ask for a quote.
You can get his contact info at the following web site: [URL]http://ca.hydesails.com/[/URL][/quote]

Tom, thanks for that info and I did ask him for a quote. Unfortunately he is about $1150 higher than National when you include tax and shipping. He is the cheapest of the sailmakers around here but that's a lot of difference in cost.

Hey Bud:

That is quite a bit of a difference. I guess that's the hazards of living on the wrong side of the border ;)

To further confuse the issue, I thought I'd share my recent quote with a local Doyle loft in Palmetto, FL. This is the email I received:

[I]" 2 options for the main. The first is local, and the second is made offshore.

Doyle sails made in USA-mains'l, 317 sq ft, 8 oz Challenge sailcloth (Bob Bainbridge sold Bainbridge and owns challenge now. Probably best cloth available as far as longevity). 4 full battens, 2 reefs-reg price $2550.00. since we have done quite a bit of business you would pay $2295 .

Hyde Sails. Good quality cloth,my design, built in Phillipines- $2040

For the Genoa:

Genoa 135%, I quoted 7 oz cloth because this cloth is better quality than 8.3 and will work MUCH better in our lighter wind conditions. If your going to the Carribean, I can do 8 oz same price-423 sq ft, uv cover, luff flatener-
Doyle Saile (Usa made) reg price $2600/your price $2340/offshore $2080. "[/I]

Last October I ordered a new 135 genoa to replace the old 150. I decided to go with Quantum Sail. They have a warehouse in Chicago and the loft in Traverse City, MI. The rep spent over an hour with me on my boat taking numerous measurements and talking (sailors all like to talk). They have their own CAD system. I got a high quality 7.3 oz dacron sail with cover with talltales and window and reefing marks on the foot, but elected not to get the luff foam. After a 20% seasonal discount the price was $2635 after shipping. They promised to come to the boat with any follow up issues that might occur. I paid a premium to have a local manufactured and contact.

Good info here. Anyone with experience - have you been successful negotiating with the local lofts or do you find that the price is the price?

I think you'll find that if you ask them to match a mail order price you won't get very far, but if you have multiple local quotes and want to negotiate you may get a little bit of movement. A big chain like North will be less flexible than your small local guy.

I got 10% off on my Doyle, but I had done some business with him in the past, so he throws me some discounts where possible. He's also raplacing a broken bimini strap for free, and retuning my rigging. I think it helps establishing a relationship with a business you can trust when it comes to pricing.

I think more generally speaking, lofts will work with you on price, but they will likely end up tweaking options to get it to your price point (i.e. less sail area, possibly using a lighter construction, different quality cloth, ec).

Incidentally, I just got an update, and my main has been designed and is being constructed as we speak. 3 weeks to delivery and installation! (Sort of bitter-sweet because I have a potential buyer coming to look at the boat this week, we'll see how that plays out)

[quote=tgrover;11732]Hey Bud:

That is quite a bit of a difference. I guess that's the hazards of living on the wrong side of the border ;)[/quote]

Tom, I had some more discussions with Ken and he came down half way closer to the price from National. He also is going to come to the boat to measure and custom fit the sail to the boat and rigging which removes a big worry from my shoulders and maximizes the sail for the boat. So in the interest of keeping local businesses working we're probably going to go with him after all. Thanks for mentioning him.

Bud;

That's good to hear. I am sure you will be pleased with the final product.

[QUOTE=bstreet;12062]Tom, I had some more discussions with Ken and he came down half way closer to the price from National. He also is going to come to the boat to measure and custom fit the sail to the boat and rigging which removes a big worry from my shoulders and maximizes the sail for the boat. So in the interest of keeping local businesses working we're probably going to go with him after all. Thanks for mentioning him.[/QUOTE]

Tom and Bud

If you would like an alternative Triton \Sales in Mississauga has been great to everyone in north western Lake Ontario. He will build what you want based on your needs and budget.

Triton Sails
[url]www.tritonsails.com[/url]

864 Lakeshore Rd. E. Mississauga. Ontario, L5E 1E1. Canada. Please contact Triton Sails at (905) 891-8166. [email]info@tritonsails.com[/email]

Ron is always fair and service has been outstanding fro over 20 years (his dad Joe was a true gentleman but unfortunately has passed on)

Any history with Mack sails?? from what i have been told, National, quantum, North, ect are all made at the same loft in china....would love to buy a US sail with US sail cloth (6.77 Marlbolhead), supposeddly the best US made dacron....

opinions!!

[QUOTE=bboggs;7820]The local sail loft was affiliated with Ullman. I talked to North, Halsey and priced the "off the shelf" places. My local loft was able to deliver a new main and 140 genny, for only about a $200 premium over Sail warehouse and at a significant savings compared to North or UK Halsey. [/QUOTE]
A bit of a side note, but I'm a bit confused over this, and Nimue's references to UK Sails and Ulmer. UK and Ulmer are the same company. In addition, they merged with Halsey-Loidgard in 2005. Even before the merger UK was one of the largest and most innovative sailmaking groups in the world.

That said, there's a lot to be said of going local. UK sails purchased in New England will likely be cut in Chicago and stitched on City Island, NY. The local "loft" is a service loft, not a sailmaker; in my case a "canvas guy" i.e., dodgers, biminis, etc.

North is just outrageously priced, in my opinion. They apparently make their own fabric, but with the same features they are nearly 60% more than the other quotes I have, and there's no guarantee they aren't assembled in China. You're paying for the name, in my opinion.

I like UK. I have a 13 year old 135% Genoa they made for me on my C36.

I found a local loft, Sperry Sails in Marion, MA. They did some maintenance and washing of my sails in the winter of 2011/2012. I got a tour of the operation from Ben Sperry, including his CAD System, automatic fabric cutters, and even met some of the ladies stitching sails. His prices are competitive, and you can visit, look over his shoulder as he touches your design on his CAD system, and get exactly what you want. He measures your boat and installs the sails. Same materials as everyone else, you can choose.

Note that several makers offer significant discounts for orders place now, or later in the Fall, for Spring delivery.

"Ullman" not "ulmer"

Whoops, sorry! My confusion.

jv

Received an email from Catalina Direct.... selling Ullman 15% off.... anyone considering this?

Tony

Jemni.
We bought a main sail from.Mack 4 years ago and was very pleased. I will be buying a nee 130 head sail from them in tbe coming year. Not even going to shop around as I was pleased and it is made here.

[QUOTE=ajcastagno;19490]Received an email from Catalina Direct.... selling Ullman 15% off.... anyone considering this?

Tony[/QUOTE]

Wow, I didn't get that email! Do you have to subscribe? I know they have my address....

I purchased a mainsail from CD last november. They were offering a deep discount if you placed order by Nov 27th and willing to take delivery late March. With quotes from all the usual sources that offer tipped the scale in their favor. I'd have to check the invoice but it was more than the 15% being offered currently, might be worth asking if they'll repeat this year. Very happy with the sail.

I checked my CD profile and had an old email address, so that's why I didn't get the notice about the 15% discount.

I spoke with Ullman today. There's more to the sails that Cd sells about the term "Offshore" than the name, they are made in the far East. You get what is offered: any changes to the spec will be upcharged. I couldn't map them exactly to a sail in Ulman's catalog, since Ullman doesn't offer an "Offshore" model, but it's probably in the "Endurance" line. And it doesn't appear to be name-brand fabric.

Ulman is offering 25% off if you buy two sails, through the end of the month.

They will build just about anything you want. They have no loft in New England. Prices seem about the same, maybe a little higher than my local guy. I'll know more when I get the formal quote.