Well, I thought taking the PSS out would be simple. Undo and remove flange, undo two set screws, pull off stainless steel donut, undo 4 hose clamps and remove the rest. Big concern was whether the set screws on the SS donut would come out, and they did come out with no problem. But I can't budge the donut! That sucker is on the shaft big time. I tried a bit of persuasion with a hammer but you really can't get a solid whack on it in there.
I'm thinking that stainless steel and bronze being dissimilar metals they have got some kind of bonding going on. However, this thing was supposedly removed last fall when we bought the boat, the marina in Sandusky the boat was at when we bought it put in a new cutlass bearing. They told us they had to drop the rudder and pull the shaft to replace the cutlass bearing because they don't have the kind of bearing puller that the Association has in the toolkit, they have to have the shaft out to drive out the bearing. So I expected it to just about fall apart but it's quite stuck.
Thought about trying some heat with a torch or a puller, but the thing is a long way from the end of the shaft and I don't have a puller with arms that long.
Anybody out there ever pulled one of these off before? Is there a trick? Or am I in for a major destruction removal job?
I do not know how these are assembled, tricks of the trade are always useful and you came to the right spot to ask.
As for hamers and channel locks they are brute force implements of distruction. How about dry ice on the shaft and a hair dryer on the seal retainer.
Failed to add the disclaimer: IF DRY ICE IS USED, VENTILATE YOUR WORK SPACE AS THE CARBONDIOXIDE RELEASED FROM THE DRY ICE CAN DISPLACE THE OXYGEN AND REDUCE YOUR IQ OR YOUR EXISTANCE.
Cepheus dream
C36 MK I # 825
MK I Tech Editor No Mas
Hey Bud:
When you have removed one set screw from each of the two threaded holes, there is another set screw further inside the holes. That makes 4 set screws in total. Believe me, I know:rolleyes: or at least there should be.....
Regards
Tom
Tom & Janis Grover
C36 #0949
SR/WK, M25XP
Midland, ON
Thanks for the input guys, much appreciated. I'm going to head back down to the boat tomorrow for round 2 with this thing.
Tom, I watched the installation video on PSS's web site after reading your post and they definitely say there should be stacked set screws, two in each hole. There are also two o-rings inside that SS donut so I don't think it should be seized to the shaft through some dissimilar metals bonding yutz. I did not know either of those things and have renewed hope this won't get ugly. Maybe a good lesson for me there, before you take something apart, see if there's a guide on how to put it together kicking around on the web somewhere.
We have been having the best spring weather imaginable so time to make hay, as they say out in the boonies where I grew up (and still live).
After you ensure that ALL the set screws are out, it certainly can't hurt to put some penetrating oil down the set screw holes.
Good luck.
Duane Ising - Past Commodore (2011-2012)
s/v Diva Di
1999 Catalina 36 Hull #1777
Std rig; wing keel, M35B, Delta (45#)
Punta Gorda, FL
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/diva-di/
Ah I am glad to see that others chimed in about 2 set screws per hole. I believe that is standard for the Dripless. I know on mine I have 2 per hole and dimpled the shaft in pre fitting the donut onto the shaft.
I am betting Bud will find that there is a 2nd set screw per hole. One thing to make sure of is that the last set screw you put in is within the hole and not sticking up. Other wise you may have trouble if the top of the screws breaks off. As set screws are made to be captivated in a hole.This might be a good time for all to check their own drive flange as well and see if it has only one or 2. I added a 2nd
Randy
Randy Sherwood
Mutualfun 1990 # 1057
T/R W/K M35a
Home. Charlotte, Mi.
Boat. St Augustine,Fl.
I can guarantee (he says hopefully) I won't be re-using any of this unit. There's a brand shiny new old style stuffing box with teflon packing waiting to go in to replace it. I know, heresy, but I explained my reasoning in another thread and I'm going with it.
I'll post back tomorrow night what happens when I go into the ring for Round 2 of Bud vs PSS.
Bud,
I looked at your other post regarding the PSS dripless seal and I completly concur. The newer teflon packing makes the old school stuffing box nearly drip proof and they are as reliable as a hammer and only needs to be serviced every few years. Mine has been nearly drip free for three years with no adjustments.
Did I mention I am old school.
Cepheus dream
C36 MK I # 825
MK I Tech Editor No Mas
Bud,
I'm guessing that after you remove the other two set screws the donut will be easy to remove. Before you move it, you might want to try some emery cloth on the shaft forward of the donut. Get the shaft as smooth as you can. You also might want to put a little dish soap on the shaft as you twist it off. If you were planning to re-use the PSS, you also have to make sure the every little burr and nick is smooth on the shaft, or you will tear the O-rings inside the donut. Don't ask how I know this!
Tom Sokoloski
C36/375IA Past Commodore
Noank, CT
Well, Round 2 went a lot better than Round 1. I trash talked that little donut sucker when I got there, told him his day was done and he just said "bring it on old man". He laughed when I went at him with the hex key shouting "It didn't work before old man it won't work today". But he stopped laughing when I went back in after more set screws. Then he started blubbering when I pulled the other two out. And after I grabbed his little head and twisted him off the shaft he shut right up. A KO in Round 2!
Well, OK, it wasn't quite like that. But it felt like that!! The 2nd set screws were not very tight at all in fact the first one when I turned it I thought I didn't have the hey key in the slot, there was no resistance. I reseated it, turned it out half a turn out, felt nothing then turned it in one and a half turns inwards before I felt any significant resistance at all. The other one wasn't much better. I am thinking it is a good thing I took this thing apart.
Tom, I did polish up the shaft and the donut came off pretty easy with just hand power didn't need to use any tools on it at all.
I got the new old stuffing box installed as well though I left the packing for another day. Was concerned about the flange being seized but it came off no problem. Yes, I did mark both halves of the flanges to get it back together correctly. It was almost 3 hours to do all this, all the while laying on my chest and I'd had enough of that for one day. The worst part was trying to move the shaft because of the new cutlass bearing it is very stiff and I had to go outside and turn the prop as I pulled out on it. Had to do this about 10 times wiggling things off and on, there's not much room in there. But it is done.
Thanks everyone for all the assistance on this. What a great resource here, people who don't belong are missing out on incredible value.
Bud, I think Steve Frost has a rival for good humor in this forum. So funny.
More importantly, so glad you have success so far. You are very right; this organization is an incredible resource.
Duane Ising - Past Commodore (2011-2012)
s/v Diva Di
1999 Catalina 36 Hull #1777
Std rig; wing keel, M35B, Delta (45#)
Punta Gorda, FL
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/diva-di/
[QUOTE=bstreet;4515] But he stopped laughing when I went back in after more set screws. Then he started blubbering when I pulled the other two out. And after I grabbed his little head and twisted him off the shaft he shut right up. A KO in Round 2![/quote]
There should always be two.
[IMG]http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/image/122852582.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=bstreet;4515]Well, OK, it wasn't quite like that. But it felt like that!! The 2nd set screws were not very tight at all in fact the first one when I turned it I thought I didn't have the hey key in the slot, there was no resistance. I reseated it, turned it out half a turn out, felt nothing then turned it in one and a half turns inwards before I felt any significant resistance at all. The other one wasn't much better. I am thinking it is a good thing I took this thing apart.[/quote]
This is why I use a split collar on all my PSS installations. Often times the individual installing the rotor senses the resistance from the factory installed thread locker and it feels "tight". No one wants to strip out a set screw so they occasionally stop prematurely before the set screws are actually tight. A clamp collar is far stronger and more reliable than a hose clamp behind the rotor. Good cheap insurance even for a traditional stuffing box..
[IMG]http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/image/122852584.jpg[/IMG]
This is why the sets screws are only a ONE TIME use..
[IMG]http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/image/122852583.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=bstreet;4515]I got the new old stuffing box installed as well though I left the packing for another day.[/quote]
That's good because I read you were thinking of using the teflon stuff. If this is the white teflon impregnated flax you should strongly consider Gore GFO instead. The white teflon stuff is like a Yugo compared to a Lexus. The Gore GFO will outperform it every time and you can get it almost drip free with no heat.
There are a couple of knock off products such Duramax Ultra-X and Western Pacific Trading's GTU but they are still not the same as Gore GFO. While not the same as GFO these too will be leaps and bounds better than teflon impregnated flax.
eMarine sells GFO for about $19.00 for two feet. It is well worth the price if you are using a traditional stuffing box. GFO, GTU and Ultra-X are all black/graphite in color. It looks like this:
[IMG]http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/image/77227850.jpg[/IMG]
I have installed it on shafts so worn that no other product could even slow the drips without over heating. The GFO gets them to nearly drip free and cool to the touch..
[QUOTE=bstreet;4515]Was concerned about the flange being seized but it came off no problem. Yes, I did mark both halves of the flanges to get it back together correctly. It was almost 3 hours to do all this, all the while laying on my chest and I'd had enough of that for one day. The worst part was trying to move the shaft because of the new cutlass bearing it is very stiff and I had to go outside and turn the prop as I pulled out on it. Had to do this about 10 times wiggling things off and on, there's not much room in there. But it is done.[/quote]
By coupling halves do you mean the gear box and the shaft coupling or do you already have a split coupling?
If you do not have a split coupling, as my old C-36 had a solid one, and it came off "easy" please do yourself a favor and do not re-use it. I just had a long conversation this morning with the owner of New England Propeller, they see about 15-20 shafts per year come free of couplings. They ruin rudders, sink boats and more when they back out of a coupling. Why does this happen? Simple, DIY's removing rusty couplings, re-using them and not knowing about the proper fit between shaft & coupling.
New England Propeller does some excellent shafting work. They actually true every shaft that goes out of their shop to .001". He has not seen more than about 40% of used solid coupling that could be re-used. The MAXIMUM clearance fit allowed by ABYC P-06 and SAE J756 is .001" between shaft and coupling. That is the absolute worst/sloppiest the fit can be, one thousandths of an inch.
Most every reputable shafting shop hand fits these couplings to the shaft for a light press or light tap fit during a "fit & face". New England Prop goes for light press fit on every shaft/coupling that goes out of the shop. This is a fit into the ten thousandths range clearance wise. A layer of rust broken free between the shaft and coupling is a minimum of about .004" loss of fit between shaft and coupling. If a solid coupling simply slides back onto a shaft please DO NOT re-use it or your shaft/coupling failure potential will increase dramatically.
I know dropping the rudder it a PITA to some (actually takes about 15-30 minutes) but removing the shaft to have a new coupling fitted & faced to the shaft is the right & safe thing to do. My own boat yard had a boat last summer that had a shaft back out, a DIY situations. Fortunately the zinc stopped it from sinking the vessel.
If you do not want to go that route you would be wise to invest in a [URL="http://www.waltergear.com/psc.htm"]Walters (LINK)[/URL] or Buck Algonquin split coupling.
Nothing is ever easy..
-Maine Sail
https://www.marinehowto.com/
Thanks for taking the time and effort to add that info Rod, I appreciate that. I read the article on your pbase.com website about stuffing boxes, in fact I think I read all your articles. Used the info there for putting in new seacocks, the PO of the boat had installed a couple of brass ball valves screwed onto bronze mushroom heads exactly as you point out is dangerous, one of them only had two threads engaged. I'm following your articles to replace them, including building the backing plates. My decision on alternator was also driven by your article there on the 90 amp Prestolite conversion. Very helpful set of articles. I also saw your excellent set of posts on the cruisers forum about your anchor testing results and that helped drive my decision to buy a new style anchor as well as the Delta that I already know and trust.
Bear in mind my choice to do this is not driven by dripping. Dripping is a manageable thing and not a concern to me. I wanted rid of a shaft seal that was well past its best before date and I wanted something in there that I have used before and trust. We had old style flax in our last boat, it had been in there for several years before we bought the boat. In the 3 years we had it we did nothing to it, could easily control the drip rate and I never found the stuffing box even warm to the touch. We tend to trust the things we know by experience and be suspicious of those we don't.
I thought the packing issue through based on what I saw on your website. There's two concerns I have with GFO.
Your article on packing a stuffing box highlights the fraying problem with GFO. That seems significant to me, the pictures of it show some really serious fraying of the cut ends and one picture of the GFO on the shaft shows a bit of a gap there. I would think a lot of pressure would be needed to close those gaps up. I have to wonder, over time, how that will play out. From what I read you only used the GFO for 6 months before installing a PSS. I'm not the least ham-fisted person in the world and I can see it being pretty tricky getting that packing into the nut and getting a good seal on the ends, even using your clever little packing pusher which I built from the info on your article. I thought about wrapping the GFO with masking tape where I make the cut, but then couldn't figure out how I would get that off without making a bigger mess when I go to install the rings.
Secondly, GFO is virtually non-existent in Canada, there is not one chandlery I can find that carries it. There are two industrial pump suppliers that make their own packing from Gore fibre, but neither are interested in selling to an individual or to the marine market. Many places in the US that sell marine stuff do not know that Canada exists as a market and simply won't ship here. It is also a PITA to get small stuff into the country, I pay more for tax/duty/broker/shipping than I do for the item. So I tend to use that as a last resort option.
I am planning on using Tefpack from Western Pacific Trading along with the Syntef lube, which I gather you are not a fan of. Western Pacific recommends the lube and I generally tend to follow manufacturers recommendations. Tefpack is a black square braided synthetic packing impregnated with PTFE (Teflon), from what I gather it cuts cleanly. I have read several descriptions of what GFO, GTU and Duramax are and it seems to be gore and graphite fibers impregnated with PTFE. PTFE seems to be an additive to any of the newer style packing materials, so it in itself does not seem to be a problem.
I can get Duramax from a chandlery in Montreal but I know little about it, have never heard of it before you mentioned it. I don't know what the synthetic fibers are in Tefpack but I'm wondering if there is much difference between it and the others you prefer. Have you ever used Tefpack?
WRT the flange. I think the flange came off easily because it had been taken off in the fall by the marina when they put in a new cutlass bearing. Neither it, nor the shaft, are rusty (bronze shaft). The faces of both sides of the flange were quite clean and bright. This flange has a woodruff key to keep it aligned on the shaft, and it has two square headed bolts that go into fairly deep holes in the shaft to keep it in place. Those two square headed bolts have holes in the top of them and I have safety wired them together to ensure they can't back out. I am having a hard time imagining how that setup could allow the shaft to back out. If I'm missing something here let me know, last thing in the world I need is the shaft falling out!
Thanks again for the info and the great website you have, it is an invaluable resource to a DIY'er like me. BTW, I am DIY because there are zero facilities here that do this work. There was one, they went broke, I had them do work on my boat and I saw first hand why they went broke. So DIY is a necessity to me.
Bud the six months was on my own boat. I have installed Gore on a number of boats all with incredible success. I work on boats other than my own, pays for my own boats annual expenses though I only do this on the side these days, but usually comment based on my own personal boat as that is my own physical experience with a product. I rarely comment on customers boats other than to say they have been tremendously happy and I rarely am asked to do another adjustment with GFO after break in. I have a PSS on my own boat because it is a v-drive and I can't afford any sling of salt water to the underside of the engine. If I had a C-36 again I would have little problem using GFO in a traditional gland.
In my younger days working in boat yards, often times as the "grunt" I was the guy responsible for hanging upside down and repacking stuffing boxes, among other jobs no one else wanted to do. I have seen the damage natural flax can do. We had no choice back then but to re-install regular old flax as there was no teflon or GFO packings.. On commercial boats we had to adjust for ridiculous drip rates to get shafts to last more than a few seasons.
The cut issue is really a minimal issue in the whole scheme. If my choice was a perfect cut with traditional flax with teflon, Tefpack, or GFO, GTO or Ultra-X it would be the latter every time. With three rings it WILL seal. There is still no comparison between natural flax from the flax plant, which has no natural lubricity of its own, and the synthetics, as natural flax in entirely dependent upon external lubrication sources like wax or teflon. With GFO, GTU and Ultra-X the actual fiber it is braided from is a lubricant and it is then either coated with graphite or impregnated with it..
Tobin bronze shafting has a significantly higher likely hood of a coupling being rust free than stainless. I spend a decent amount of time talking with Don the owner of New England Prop and a friend who used to run a prop shop here in Maine. Both are unsure why bronze and steel rust less? I currently have a bronze shaft on my shop with the coupling still on it (pulled out into the boat). I would bet it is a 60/40 chance that it can be re-used where if stainless I would say very unlikely. There are very few bronze shafts left... Don is who I use for my shafting work these days and I have a shaft & cutlass to do this spring for an Ericson owner. The bottom line is if your shaft coupling does not require a light tap or light pres fit onto the shaft I would not re-use it. I flat out will not install one that does not require a light tap or light press fit. The yard I used to work at sent them back if they did not need a good tapping to dive the coupling on and this was in the mid 80's to early 90's so things are still consistent in the world of prop shafting..
The set screws were never intended as the primary load carrier. The friction fit and the pressure against the key supply a good portion of the holding force. In short it is divided three ways. If the set screws become the primary load bearing devices, because the fit is sloppy, the key, coupling and shaft can become damaged and the slop can cause a failure, usually of the shaft. A shaft backing out is a worst case scenario. The more common failures are the wobbling of a coupling on the shaft and the wearing of the keyway which ruin the inboard end of the shaft and require a new one.
Tefpac is a synthetic fiber that makes up the braid as opposed to a natural plant based product, like manila warp as opposed to nylon. By nature it should rot less and have more natural lubricity than a natural flax does but is still mostly dependent upon the added teflon for the lubricity. It is still not GTU or GFO. If you can get Duramx Ultra-X, or GTU (you can already get WPT Tefpac) that is what I would buy. Both are a knock off of Gore not a knock off of Tefpack.
-Maine Sail
https://www.marinehowto.com/
I did some reading on Duramax which I can get from BL in Montreal and it claims to cut cleanly, they show cut ends on their promotional materials with no signs of fraying. That addresses one of my biggest concerns. Of course, that could always be advertising hype, I don't know.
I'm almost convinced now, but....
From what I read for GFO, GTU and Duramax you are supposed to leave it very loose when installed and let it drip at least once per second for a few hours and then for the first 5 to 10 hours of running let it drip pretty freely (not sure what that means, 10 drops a minute? 5? 20?). Then you can slow the drip rate down, I used to get 3 or 4 drips per minute while motoring with the old flax packing and had a cool stuffing box, I would expect less with Duramax maybe 1 or 2 drops per minute.
I understand that if you tighten it up to stop the drip when the boat gets splashed then it will burn up right away, even if you back the pressure off before you turn the shaft it will still burn up, and you'll have to do it all over again. I would like to be able to tighten down enough to know I can stop or slow the drip to a reasonable level right away.
There's two reasons for this:
1./Our marina does not have a Travel-lift, they bring in a crane and once he's gone it is a boat buck to get him to come back. I would hate to find out after he's gone that there is a problem with how I installed it, of course this same thing could apply to any other stuffing, but due to my concern about fraying it is more of a concern with the newer type packing. I have read about people changing packing in the water but have no idea how one would stop the water flow enough to do that, I guess wrap a bunch of rags into a ball around it and tie or clamp them down firmly?
B./This is the big one. We splash on May 8th, between now and then it is likely that we won't have the engine running when it goes back in. That means the boat will sit in the slip with quite a bit of water ingress for probably several weeks during the break in period, we don't motor much and I'm not willing to just go out and motor around to break in packing for 5 or 10 hours. We live 2 hours from the boat and the marina doesn't guarantee to look after your boat in any way. It is leaving a lot up to the bilge pump and we know nothing about how reliable this pump and switch is yet, all I know is if I lift the float switch the pump comes on, other than that it is untested by me as yet. Thought about a back up sump pump plugged in to 110 volt but not sure I can find one that would fit in the bilge. I suppose worst case I'd spend a night on the boat but on May 8th up here that's not a thing to look forward to.
I guess I wonder how much water is going to come in during this long break in period and how do I manage that risk?
I think too much, at least I think I think too much. Or maybe not.
[QUOTE=bstreet;4533]I did some reading on Duramax which I can get from BL in Montreal and it claims to cut cleanly, they show cut ends on their promotional materials with no signs of fraying. That addresses one of my biggest concerns. Of course, that could always be advertising hype, I don't know.
[/QUOTE]
Bud,
I'm glad we had this disc. I just searched my photos of the stuffing box article and realized that the packing I used was likely NOT GFO as I thought it was. GFO is marked on the packing in white writing. I could not find a photo with any GFO logo.
The only other packing it could have been was GTU because Durmax was not being sold when I wrote that. I rarely get bad cuts like that with GFO but because I thought that was GFO I thought it would be better to include the fraying.
I just picked up some 1/4" Duramax Ultra-X today and with do a cut test with it tonight and let you know how it works. I searched the barn for any scrap GFO but can't seem to locate any. I know I have some, it is finding it that is difficult. Lost a whole box of Marelon valves (perhaps $800.00 worth) for over two years and just found them last night, so all is not lost for good...;)
I will let you know how the Ultra-X cuts.
-Maine Sail
https://www.marinehowto.com/
Bud,
The Duramax Ultra-X cuts fine with a new razor blade. Sorry the camera was on the boat..
-Maine Sail
https://www.marinehowto.com/