Good day to all. I have really enjoyed reading many discussions and learned a lot from you all in this website. Thank you for all your advise in the past. What a great body of knowledge.
I have read the "ESB", Emergency Starting Battery, article in the tech notes, and am looking to do a project like this. But there are a few questions. For validation of my thoughts, and good advice.
My config - Battery selector switch is at the chart table at the distribution panel. 2 4-D AGM batteries, 200 amps each. The NEG's are paralleled. 1 battery NEG goes to NEG bus behind the breaker panel, and to engine. 2 battery NEG goes to charger and windlass. Since both NEGs are paralleled both batteries get the NEG to all end terminals.
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Robert Trinkle
Troubador, 1995 C36 MKII #1433, SR/WK
Universal M35A
Kinsale Harbor Marina
Kinsale, VA
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Issue 1 - Type and size of starting battery? Stick with AGM? If so, can I charge both batteries at the same time in the "Both" position with engine even though they might be different sizes? What would happen if I use wet-cell instead for ESB?
Issue 2 - If I put the starting battery in the forward, starboard sette, can I just run the NEG to the other batteries to take advantage of their NEG config?
Issue 3 - I was thinking of removing the positive wires (charger and alternator) from Battery 1 (sector postion 1) and getting the same gauge wire then spicing them together to run to ESB, and then directly paralleling the 2-4d Batteries with a short cable to charge both on selector position 2. Does this seem feasable?
Issue 4 - I was going to use the starndard analog volt meter already installed. Position 1 to ESB, Position 2 to house bank. Also, transferring the bilge pump to position 2.
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Robert Trinkle
Troubador, 1995 C36 MKII #1433, SR/WK
Universal M35A
Kinsale Harbor Marina
Kinsale, VA
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Cost - Batteries are more expensive at my current location. We are taking a 10 day cruise from Stingray Point, VA to the Northern Chesapeake. Stopping in Anapolis for a few days. We found a small battery shop there, where we would pick up the ESB. In the interim, has anyone used the emergency battery jump starters? Like from West Marine? Just in case we need some extra power? We plan on anchoring most of the time. Is it worth the money?
Again, thanks for all the advice in the past, I think this website is awesome.
Robert Trinkle
Troubador, 1995 C36 MKII #1433, SR/WK
Universal M35A
Kinsale Harbor Marina
Kinsale, VA
There are many variations on how to do this. I personally don't subscribe to the "ESB" theory, our starting battery is the starting battery, but I have a manual combiner at the engine to be able to start from either the house bank or the starting battery.
I mounted a small AGM battery on its side in the locker right as you enter the aft cabin. It is mounted on a holder in there. That is wired to a manual combiner beside the engine then to the starter on the engine, very short run of 2 AWG cable is sufficient for both positive and ground to the engine block. Has its own disconnect at the battery so it can be removed totally from the circuit if necessary. Charged by an echo charger.
House bank is on the main switch which gives me flexibility if I lose a cell to run off the other bank. We have 6 volts so that's important. Wired to the combiner at the engine. Very simple and reliable system.
I found that my emgency jump starter from WM will work only if it is fully charged. If I let is sit for a coule of weeks then try to start with it, it does not have enough "Juice" to start a car engine. Our sailboat engines being much smaller may work with a Jump starter device better becaue it requires less power. If I were going to take it on a cruise for a week or two I would rechage it evry 3 or 4 days at the most and after every use. The bigger emergency jump starters used by towing companies hold enough charge to work better.
__/)__/)__/)__Capt Mike__/)__/)__/)__
Punta Gorda Florida
1990 Std WK M35 Hull #1050
Your solutions to issues 2,3,4 seem fine. A drawing would help. Insofar as battery types, usually OK to charge wet cells and AGM from the same charger source/settings. I've done something similiar to Bud. A have a small AGM starting battery (400CCA) mounted close to the engine and it connects to the house batteries via a voltage sensing relay. I've eliminated all selector switches as the relay has provisions for auto, manual isolate, and manual combine (I have an alarm on the combine selection).
Nick Caballero
Retired C36/375IA Mk II Technical Editor
Bud,
Question about your configuration, please. Where is the echo charger connected to your house banks? #1 6V batteries in series, #2 6V batteries in series, or on "C" of the combiner
Robert Trinkle
Troubador, 1995 C36 MKII #1433, SR/WK
Universal M35A
Kinsale Harbor Marina
Kinsale, VA
Great suggestions from all, which lead to further questions.
Regarding the battery size, what defines "small" or 400 cca battery? What are the physical deminsions of the battery or battery group number?
Regarding the echo charger, if I wire the batteries the way I described, will this cook the starting battery when under alternator charge with the selector switch in "both" position, or would the need of an echo charger be necessary to prevent this from happening? My shore power charger is a "smart" charger with 3 positive leads, so I think that would prevent the charger from cooking the start battery. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Robert Trinkle
Troubador, 1995 C36 MKII #1433, SR/WK
Universal M35A
Kinsale Harbor Marina
Kinsale, VA
400CCA is the max amps available at 32 degrees F. I installed a Big Crank ETX-30L, made in the USA, about $100. If you use an isolator, a relay, or a switch there's a theoretical possibility of cooking a small battery that is in parallel with a large battery because the small battery might be exposed to bulk/absorption voltages/durations dictated by the large battery. In the real world, likely not very common. I'm a fan of the Echo Charger as it isolates and shadows the charging slope of the house bank.
An isolated starting battery must supply your engine panel and lift pump for variable duration without charging because you likely give priority to the house bank. My 400CCA has only 26AH and a running engine draws about 3 amps and my house bank must come up to 13.6 volts before my batteries automatically parallel (Blue Seas). My Blue Seas relay has a control input for manual combine and a flashing indicator lamp when in combine.
Yes on your thoughts on your battery charger.
Nick Caballero
Retired C36/375IA Mk II Technical Editor
Further to what Nick said, the echo charger limits the charge current to 15 amps maximum, which is more than enough to recharge a starting battery. Plus it essentially carries the 5 amp load for fuel pump, instruments, etc while the engine is running.
Our AGM is rated at 1100 marine cranking amps. It is a small battery, smaller than group 24, has to be or it wouldn't fit in that locker. AGMs are very good at throwing out a pile of amps in a big rush which makes them perfect as starting batteries. It is only rated at 40 AH, but a large AH rating is not a terribly important requirement for a starting battery. This battery is a Nautilus from Canadian Tire, I think made by Exide? It's been doing its job for 5 years now without an issue.
Re reply #8, overcharging is just a myth. And it was discussed on this forum, too:
Overcharging with Combiners or ACRs The MYTH:http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,7052.0.html
Stu Jackson, C34IA Secretary, C34 #224, 1986, SR/FK, M25 engine, Rocna 10 (22#)
Okay. This all great information. It is making me re-think my start battery configuration. Can someone please explain the way an echo charger and relay work? And how they charge the battery? What is the charging source to the charger? Would it still be feasible to still put the starting battery in the fwd settee, and utilize the engine and charger positive cables from that used to go to the No.1 house battery, and incorporate a relay and/or echo charger. I'm also going to read up on relays and echo chargers.
Robert Trinkle
Troubador, 1995 C36 MKII #1433, SR/WK
Universal M35A
Kinsale Harbor Marina
Kinsale, VA
An Automatic Combining Relay (ACR) parallels or isolates banks based upon sensing if a charge source is on or off; essentially automating what you do manually with a “both” switch. Quite different, an Echo Charger takes some of the charge current going to one bank (usually the house) and bleeds off a bit to another bank (usually the start battery) without paralleling. In both cases, the charging source can be anything. On my boat, all charging sources only connect to the house bank and I normally let the ACR decide when to parallel in the starting battery or isolate it.
Yes, certainly feasible to put the starting battery in the fwd settee and utilize the engine and charger positive cables that used to go to the No.1 house battery and incorporate a relay and/or echo charger. This is where the previous owner of our boat had his starting battery, but the Admiral wanted the settee for storage and I was not satisfied with the complexity of the installation.
Nick Caballero
Retired C36/375IA Mk II Technical Editor
Just a word of caution here. By ABYC standards, the highest-energy circuit on a boat can be absolutely unprotected, i.e., the circuit that starts the diesel is not fused. Be aware that although the danger from electrocution from 12 volts DC is zero, the danger from burns and fire is real. If you inadvertently cross the positive and negative of a house or starter battery with a conductor, it can be as harmless as a few sparks to as dangerous as the conductor becomes welded to the terminals. I saw this once with a mechanic that was tightening a NiCad battery down on a jet and his wrench spanned the terminals. The wrench became white hot and the mechanic, in his attempts to pull the wrench out, received some bad burns. Some tips: wear safety glasses, remove all jewelry, don’t leave positive terminals or cable ends exposed, always “scratch” high-energy connections before making them, and know where your fire extinguishers are.
Nick Caballero
Retired C36/375IA Mk II Technical Editor
Thanks for the additional information. I read up on ACRs and echo charger. So I was thinking of doing this: add an ACR to the start battery. Spicing the engine POS from the old No. 1 battery with the same guage wire already present, leaving the connection to No.1 position on batt switch and do the same with the charger POS from the old No.1 battery. Run both leads to the ACR, then to the start battery. Then the start batt NEG to the NEG on the house bank.
i believe this will allow me to use the batt selector switch in any position to start the engine. In the " both" position, it will allow me to charge both start and house at same time. And the ACR will protect the starting battery if I forget to switch back to house bank from "both" position. Therefore I will not drain the start batt if house bank is low, and also protect the start battery from being cooked when running engine. Does this sound like a good idea, or should I wire differently?
Robert Trinkle
Troubador, 1995 C36 MKII #1433, SR/WK
Universal M35A
Kinsale Harbor Marina
Kinsale, VA
If you haven't already, check out Mainesail's excellent write-up (with diagrams) on the selector switch, available at http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=137615
We adopted the system described at the end of that article ("Alternate Methods & Switches"). The Alternator output goes directly to the house bank, and the start battery gets its charging via an Automatic Combining Relay (in our instance, a Blue Seas SI series p/n 7610). We've found this system works very well; basically, we never have to bother with the selector switch anymore (unless we have a rundown battery someplace); charging selection takes place on its own, and the starter battery gets to be regularly exercised for its stated purpose. A schematic is here: https://www.catalina36.org/sites/default/files/forum/Wiring%20Chart%20%2...
Matthew Chachère
s/v ¡Que Chévere!
(Formerly 1985 C36 MKI #466 tall rig fin keel M25)
2006 Catalina Morgan 440 #30.
Homeported in eastern Long Island, NY
I would also parallel the house bank POS with a short cable, directly connected to the batteries.
Right now, we use the fwd settee for tool bag, and spares, so adding a battery should not be an issue, but I might think about moving the battery somewhere else, and moving my tools and spares as well to use the settee for food and water stores.
I have also read of arcing batteries. My practice is to have covers on all battery terminals, or place the battery in a battery box, protected.
Thanks again for the great info. If I seem to missing anything, please let me know.
Robert Trinkle
Troubador, 1995 C36 MKII #1433, SR/WK
Universal M35A
Kinsale Harbor Marina
Kinsale, VA
The Yandina combiner (previously sold at WM) IMHO is a btter choice than the Blue Sea ACR. It's less expensive and has a lifetime warranty which is actualy useful because the company is still in business and honor it. Mine's been flawless since 1998. Yes, people say there is a small mA current draw, but if you have a 400 ah house bank, that's peanuts.
Stu Jackson, C34IA Secretary, C34 #224, 1986, SR/FK, M25 engine, Rocna 10 (22#)
Okay, I was able to diagram my vision of the addtion to the starting battery. I'm not really clued into the wiring of an ACR, so there is probably some correction there. In the drawing, I have also added an optional A/B/Both/Off switch to further isolate the house batteries, just in case one battery goes bad, or I decide to go with 4 6V batteries when its time to replace. In that case, I would remove the solid line from the B position in the standard A/B/Both switch to the house bank, and remove the parallel POS cable connecting both house batteries together.
Please let me know what you think, and any corrections I should make.
Thanks,
Robert Trinkle
Troubador, 1995 C36 MKII #1433, SR/WK
Universal M35A
Kinsale Harbor Marina
Kinsale, VA
Robert,
It might be difficult to follow everything you're thinking. The forum may not provide the level of review that you may require. So, I've worked up a schematic of the factory wiring as a starting point, a schematic which seems to be close to your goals, and a schematic of what I personally have done. May I suggest that you look at these coupled with varied sources of knowledge to arrive at a solution you can tackle.
Fair to note that my drawings are schematics and don't convey location attributes. For example, I might show the alternator output connecting to a selector switch post, but the physical connection might really be on the starter lug which then has a wire to the selector switch post. Don't be lulled into thinking this project is as simple as the schematic. It is not.
Finally, for schematic simplicity I'm not showing any of the best practices of wire size, fuses, etc. Referencing ABYC will be your best bet here.
Good luck!
Nick Caballero
Retired C36/375IA Mk II Technical Editor
I don't seem to have access to Charging_2.pdf. Getting a access forbidden. The address of the file is https://www.c36ia.org/sites/default/files/forum/Charging_2.pdf.
Do you think you can email it to me? rbtrinkle@msn.com
Thanks,
Robert Trinkle
Troubador, 1995 C36 MKII #1433, SR/WK
Universal M35A
Kinsale Harbor Marina
Kinsale, VA
Just sent. Can someone else please download and let me know if there's a problem. Might be something with the new web site.....
Nick Caballero
Retired C36/375IA Mk II Technical Editor
The link works fine for me, the URL it should be is:
https://www.catalina36.org/sites/default/files/forum/Charging_2.pdf
Note the domain. If you are going to www.c36ia.org or any old C36 domain change it to www.catalina36.org. There is a redirect from all our old domain names to www.catalina36.org but it works best by using the new domain.
It was the domain name. Thanks. I'll update my links.
Nick, thanks for the diagram. It puts a great perspective on the project, and I can now see where the leads go to the starter and alternator. I might have a few questions in the future on this thread, but you gave me a great starting point. I think it's all clicking now. No pun intended.
Robert Trinkle
Troubador, 1995 C36 MKII #1433, SR/WK
Universal M35A
Kinsale Harbor Marina
Kinsale, VA