Al, not to be a contrarian, BUT...

I have been sailing on SF Bay for the past 30 years or so, and have noted that except for rare occasions the fog we have here is NOT deck level, as it may be, say, in Maine. A day like the [I]Cosco Busan[/I] debacle is a day I would NOT take my boat out. I came down from Napa in 2008 across the slot early in the morning with 1/4 mile visibility, but I kept to east side of the ferry lanes and was OK, but it sure was spooky. However, radar would not have given me anything more than what I saw, which was nothing. Except for fishing boats, which are the MOST notorious for being "in the way" of sailboats, both here and outside the Gate even in perfect visibility. They somehow manage to get on converging courses with me, and usually have no one at the helm. Radar isn't gonna help in that situation either.

The SF "famous for its fog" is simply not true. Yup, we get it, but most of the time it's at 1500 feet, enough to fly and sail safely below. And those few days of the year when it's NOT (where it is rare that the air temperature is so high, the water so cold and the high pressure system so high - other than the folks in Berkeley!!!) that is just hasn't justified getting radar to me.

Your boat, your choice.

We also have a GREAT VTS system here, listen into Ch 14 in the Bay and 12 (every half hour on the quarter hour) and you'll know where the BIG BOYS are and where they're goin'.

If you have a choice of boat bucks to spend, I'd opt for a good chartplotter and AIS (receive only). If all recreational boats get AIS senders, we're all in deep do-do - the screens would be too cluttered for any reasonable use, and bad skippers would only get worse.

Nice to hear you're in that brand new marina down Redwood City way. How is it?

Stu and Larry,

Great info! So...if I go radar...no gimbel. Got it. As to the fog observations re SF Bay, I am in the south bay and from time to time it does seem to sit low...

I do have a Raymarine CW90 with ST 60 wind/depth guages, etc. and am considering an AIS receiver. Just money.....and money.....and money!

I just spoke with an electrician I have used in the past. To install the radar and AIS he wants a $1000. Seems like a lot...wondering if I can do it, calibrate, etc.?

Thanks!!!!

al

Stu,

As to the Westpoint Marina, very nice. Mark Sanders developed it and seems like a topflight guy. Always there, etc. New clubhouse, etc. Landscaping still in progress. About 50% full at this point.

Nice features include pump out at each dock and 'rounded' dock piers...makes it nice when arriving/departing...no sharp corners to bang against.

Only challenges are a) very south bay...tide/depth a very big factor. Low tide means accessing main channel is a real challenge as depth at mouth of harbor will drop to 4 feet! I see boats aground on many occasions.

Those issues aside...a topflight operation.

Thanks!

al

I bought a used radar for $750 and installed it myself. For anybody who is moderately handy, the installation is not difficult. Mine is installed on the back stay; I couldn't really say about a mast-installed radar. As for its usefulness: I've used it in the Bay about two or three times in the two years I've had it installed, and that was after dark, not in fog. Even then, it was as much for legal protection as because I needed it. So I don't consider it to be vitally necessary for sailing in the SF bay. On the gimablled mount: I got one from radaronthelevel.com. This has a gimballed mount, but it's not the hydraulic kind and is waay cheaper - about the cost of a fixed one.

Many people can get by without Radar, especially more so on the western side. The more east you go (towards Mystic, Newport, etc) the more often you can get fog. Really bad fog too. I have so many stories of people that can't even find their boats at anchor in the Great Salt Pond Block island from the Fog. It was so bad when I was there I know I could spit further than I could see.

I can go a whole season on LI Sound without ever needing my Radar, especially if I don't cruise east. But.....

I can recall the first time I used it and really needed it and it PAID FOR ITSELF 100 TIMES OVER. I can tell you it was PRICELESS. You might not need radar and you might rarely use it, but all it takes is one time to use it and it will worth every penny it cost to put it on your boat. The feeling of being caught in Fog and not having it is horrible. (Fog can come on surprisingly quick) You will feel blind, panicked and freaking out.

Even with it when there is thick fog you will still be very anxious, but if you go slow and in control you will manage. This past summer I was single handling and trying to get from Block Island to Stonington Conn (or anywhere there safe). Half way across the Fog set in and I was getting very anxious. There is a lot of Barge/Big ship traffic there. I was calling 'pan pan's giving my position & recall seeing a blip on the screen - It was a tug with a Tow line pulkling a barge (they are the worse) and asking the skipper what he'd like me to do. I recall he said, don't change course one inch west (I said I'd turn and go directly east if he thought I should) They passed with 50-100 yards and I couldn't see or hear a thing. (Did he have a Fog Horn going??) When I got the the Fisher Island area at Watch Hill Pass it wasn't much better, plus things are worse in some ways as its very rocky with many underwater hazards to dodge within a small area and the tidal current in that area can push you out of a channel into a rock in just a moment. (There are reefs and rocks and channels and shoals everywhere)

(take a look here at top chart on the right [url]http://www.charts.noaa.gov/OnLineViewer/12372a.shtml[/url] )

Remember that I was alone too, if I didn't have my autopilot tied to my chart plotter I don't know how I could have made it through. By going slow & having my autopilot aim for DIRECTLY in the middle of the channel (Via TRACK mode to compensate for tidal pushing me sideways) while watching the radar and continually doing that through all the twists and turn I was able to sneak just behind the Stonington harbor breakwater and drop anchor (I was literally 40 feet away from other boats anchored before I could see them when I was dropping anchor)

It was pretty hairy - I remember thinking "never again", but having good gear and electronics that works made it doable.

Yes, though Radar may rarely be used, IMHO it only takes 1 time to be worth every penny.

[ATTACH]347[/ATTACH]This was taken outside of Stonington Harbor CT. It was not the time I described above, it was another time and it was not as bad a fog as the time above. (try and spot the sailboat in the picture :rolleyes: )

Larry,

I beleive you teach a radar class hopefuly you can weigh in on this.

I have experienced the anxiety that Tom noted when the soup drops in around you. My GPS chartplotter has been for the most part a nice piece of gear on my boat that was fun to glance at like Google Maps but was seldom used for real navigation. I found myself in pea soup fog at night negotiating an entrance into an not to familiar harbor with a few trick dog legs in the entrance. I fell in love with my GPS that night. I had considered radar for my boat some time in the future as finacial fortunes permit. My current inclination would lead me to AIS, as my GPS tells me where the dirt and rocks are, AIS would tell me where the big metal boats are and I will take my chances with the small wood and plastic ones.

The reason for this thinking is that radar takes considerable use and pracitice to interpret properly and often times may not pick up small targets in they have no radar reflector aboard. Iterestingly the newest aircraft radar for airline equipment that will be on the market in the next year or so from Rockwell Collins and Honeywell will have no controls other than on and off, all other features will be controled by the unit to eliminate operator mis-use. Their primary use radar is for storm avoidance, these new units will be tied to GPS so the unit will no what the terrain is below and what types of weather are typical in that area.

AIS is also far closer to a financial reality for me as recievers are now available for a few hundred bucks that puts the AIS display on my chart plotter. Radar would be waaaaay down on my list of needed things on my boat as I am often on the fringe of being able to justify the cost of ownership at times as it is. Above radar on the list would be new batteries, high output alternator, new running rigging, new life lines, a new head sail that does not have a luff that looks like the cuff of my oldest Levi's and a main sail that does not look like your aunt Martha's ass in spandex, ah the list goes on.

I wrote this last summer but it is still pertinent..

Ok, this is going to be a little bit of a frustration rant but mostly at folks who probably do not participate in these forums anyway.. I'm sure you guys don't behave like this..

I just returned from a rather foggy cruise and the growth of the GPS plotter is causing some rather inflated man jewels, (brass balls), on the water. No, make that big reckless man jewells.

As one who grew up navigating in the fog, before the advent of GPS plotters, and also one who spent thousands of hours working the foggy waters of the North East as a commercial lobsterman & while fishing for Blue Fin Tuna, I am alarmed at the new quality and quantity of boaters who are willing to venture out in this stuff, totally ill prepared, being guided by nothing more than blind faith and a GPS screen.

Thick fog deserves RESPECT and you must use some common sense when out in the soup.

Here's a list of some things I witnessed, not just once, but many times over just one week, in visibilities from 70 feet to about 400 feet.

[B]Boat #1 - [/B]Sailboat from MA in 100 feet of visibility = No running lights, no radar reflector, no radar, no fog signals/horn, boat not a good radar target & barely showing up about every third sweep, not monitoring VHF 16 or any of the standard channels.

[B]Boat #2 - [/B]Sea Ray from South Portland doing 30+ knots in 150 feet of vis. Picked up at 1 mile out as a random sea clutter type of return, tracked it, and realized it was a vessel moving at a high rate of speed directly towards me. Made hard turn to stbd and Sea Ray passed seconds later within 70 feet. Did not slow down, did not respond to VHF 09, 13, 16 or 72 hails. No fog horn, no radar, no running lights no radar reflector boat showed up like sea clutter at best. If my radar screen was anywhere other than the helm he might have run us down.

[B]Boat #3 - [/B]Center console from the mid coast doing close to 30 knots and heading straight for a nun. This is what all the "inexperienced in fog boaters" do in fog. Do yourself a favor and STAY AWAY FROM MARKS IN THE FOG! Set your course well proud of any widely used nav aids. All the "new bravado" guys with plotters & no radar head straight for them. [I][B]"Hey baby, see how cool this GPS thingy is, we almost hit that can!"[/B][/I]

I could go on and on and on from just a short trip. Please don't get me wrong we did meet plenty experienced skippers of boats who were using proper fog etiquette, communications, lights & signals but there seem to me more and more people who have NO CLUE how dangerous they really are to themselves and others.

If your one and only tool for navigation in the fog is a plotter, please, please, please STAY PUT! You don't absolutely need radar, though more so today than in the 70's or 80's because inexperienced people did not go out in the fog as they do today, but you DO need some other items to communicate and let others know of your presence.

If you can afford a boat, and to risk your life and the life of others, in 100 foot visibility, you can certainly afford a VHF, a fog horn/signal, running lights and a radar reflector. Are these items too much to ask for? Apparently they are for many these days..

[B]Things to do when in fog to be a good boater and to be courteous to others.[/B]
[B]
Radar Reflector[/B] = BUY ONE AND USE IT!!!! Just because you choose not to have radar does not mean you should choose to be invisible or nearly invisible to the rest of the world who may be practicing good collision avoidance.

[B]VHF[/B] = USE IT and by that I mean turn the darn thing on and monitor VHF 16 at the least. PLEASE! I don't have your cell number on speed dial...[B]

Running Lights[/B] = When the visibility drops USE THEM!!! They do help and can add another 50-100 feet of warning.

[B]Fog Signals[/B] = For cryin' out loud Wal*Mart sells sports air horns for $6.00. Please get one and use it properly.

[B]Slow Down =[/B] A single sailboat traveling at 6 knots is covering 10.1 feet per second. In 100 feet of visibility the collision time to a fixed object is roughly 11 seconds from your first physical sighting. Now take two sailboats converging, each traveling at 6 knots, your collision time in 100 feet of visibility, from your first physical sighting, becomes just 5 seconds.

A power boat traveling 30 knots, on a collision course, will collide with a sailboat doing six knots, at 100 feet of visibility, in under two seconds from the first sighting! You will NOT have enough reaction time to avoid a collision with a clown like this other than to have radar and been tracking him. Think people don't go fast in the fog? Think again..

Some photo examples of what these reckless boaters look like:

[I][B]There really is a boat here 100 feet off my stern. No radar, no reflector, no running lights, no horn signals and not even a VHF response.[/B][/I] [I][B]"Dumb dee dumb, sailing awayyyy, dumb dee dumb, doh', a boat, how'd that get there?"[/B][/I]
[IMG]http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/image/115671058.jpg[/IMG]
[B][I]Here's a radar shot of that boat when it was actually showing up. It's the red spec just above the 18 foot spot off my stbd stern quarter. The two targets ahead and to port and stbd were two J Boats traveling together both of which had reflectors when they went by. SOME BOATS JUST DO NOT SHOW UP ON RADAR!!! The guy behind me owns one![/I][/B]
[IMG]http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/image/115671059.jpg[/IMG]

[B][I]1st class clown (see speed above), no radar, no lights, no horn signals, no reflector and also not showing up well, and not monitoring VHF![/I][/B]
[IMG]http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/image/115686358.jpg[/IMG]

[B][I]For reference this is 400 feet of visibility from yesterday morning (400 feet is generally fairly good vis for Maine fog):[/I][/B]
[IMG]http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/image/115686683.jpg[/IMG]

[B][I]And here's the screen shot with the cursor just over the closest radar image at 411 feet (upper left corner measures distance).:
[/I][/B]
[URL]http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/image/115686690.jpg[/URL]

It scares me how many people are just plain dangerous and have no clue they are being so reckless. If they succeed once they do it again only this time with a greater level of comfort and confidence. The best you can do is your best to have the right gear and be as visible as you can be..

Totally appropriate rant! In fact I felt a serious pang of guilt :eek: for not having my radar reflector [I]permanently [/I]mounted in our rigging... which raises an interesting question.

Since my old boat had the cylindrical type, and now we have the reflector made by two diamond shapes offset by 90 degrees, it may be a good reminder to explain:
1. what is the optimum orientation to position it?
2. where on a c36 is the best spot to mount it?
3. what tricks if any, are there to securing it to withstand UV and other environmental impacts?

Thanks for the insights.

Mainsail,

Great post!

Yes, it stired some guilt in me. Just how effective is the best reflector money can buy when it sits on the shelf forward of MY v berth.

A simple davis Echomaster radar reflector is surpringly effective (Even the cheaper aluminum foil one) But ANY radar reflector left up is better than none. No ?

I just leave mine up all the time on the Port Flag halyard I have on the spreader there. It'll stay up there all season no problem. No worries about it holding up, they last for years. Its supposed to be sitting the the "catch rain" position, but no matter what it moves anyway. From tests with other boats with radar, they don't notice any difference in efficacy for reflection. More important to just get it up there,

One clear day I was trying out my older Raymarine Chartplotter/Radar (RL70CRC) with other Catalina Friends sailing around that had various Radar Reflectors and boats (C36, C387 and C42).,

I can and do constantly tune my radar unit while I am using it to get the maximum reflections without clutter. I know I have to adjust when I change the zoom level, but I play with the radar and get fairly good with it. I usually use Radar "Auto" tune features, but one or two adjustments I usually play with (usually gain) On a calm day with little wave action I can tune it to pick up a group of birds flying a few feet off the water (actually happened to me in the fog and I was wondering what idiot was zooming by me at speed then saw the group of 8 or so birds whiz by)

It was a Fairly calm day. The C42 had a regular Davis type - interestingly I could see him just as well with and without the reflector up. (Was I picking it up in his cockpit?) But then my radar is tuned pretty well for within a mile or two. The C387 had the fancy expensive tubular Reflector (Firedale Blipper or Echomax, not sure) and it didn't seem to be much different than the C42. The C36 was without a reflector up and I have to be honest, I saw the C36 just fine. None of the boats seemed to have any "weak" signals but maybe thats because I have the radar tuned so sensitively.

I think the thing you have to worry about is how well the "other" boats out there have their radars tuned. Many probably don't know how to tune the radar to get the best Signal to show up. I am not sure the "Auto" setting for everything on a Marine Radar unit is going to show people everything thats out there in the fog.

Here's a good interesting site - [url]http://www.theradarreflectorsite.org/[/url]

I find using my VHF/Fog Signal unit from Standard Horizon to be a great device. I just hit a few buttons to set the the unit to sound the proper Fog signals and I am off

BUT BEWARE the Standard Horizon combination VHF/Hailer units (at least the ones on the past) cannot simultaneously sound the Fog Signal and be used as a VHF at the same time. If you wanted to hail someone you'd have to turn off the Fog Signal/hailer and then use the VHF and then turn it back on again as a Fog Signal. A Royal pain in the a**.

I just leave my Fog Hailer on and use my handheld VHF if I need to hail anyone. Works ok for me.

(BTW - Mainesail - Good to hear from you again and glad to know you are still around on our boards once in a while)

According to the instructor in my C.G. Aux. course, if your vessel has radar, you MUST have it on and use it at all times.

If you don't and have a collision, you will be cited by the C.G.

It is probably a bit more complex than that, but the fact that you have not used "every means available to you to avoid a collision" will be used against you, for sure.

Larry, it seems that this thread has been truncated, because I remember Al originally asking the question and what's the start on page 1 now I recall as being the start of page 2. That's because you responded to "Al" in reply #1, and so did I in Reply #2 on what is now page 1.

All the discussions about radar are extremely valid -- [I][U]for where you cruise[/U][/I]. IIRC, Al's original question was something like: "Do I NEED radar on San Francisco Bay?" Since that was location specific, that's how I answered. If I lived in Maine or sailed in eastern Long Island Sound, my answer would have been more reflective of those who have shared their experiences with pea soup.

Larry, thanks for the clarification. At least as far as this thread is concerned, I am not nuts. Notice that careful disclaimer, 'cuz I am nuts in many other regards!

My point, which may have been lost in the thread separation, is simply this: all fog is NOT alike. My earlier answer to Al was that SF fog rarely, except for a very few instances per year which can be counted on less than one hand, is lower than 1500 feet. San Francisco's reputation for fog is a misnomer, because they're really low clouds at 1500 or higher, so everything is clear at ground (i.e., sailing) level. OK, OK, I agree they call it fog, but it is simply not that killer pea soup which would require radar.

Repetition over, thanks for the heads up.