Neil, saying your smartphone receives data "anywhere" may be overstating its capabilities.

I know very little about the iPad, but it can't be too different from my iPhone. In spite of what Apple sales people and marketing literature tell you, the iPhone does NOT have an embedded GPS. It uses a pseudo-GPS, a 'GPS-wanna-be', probably triangulation from various cellphone towers. As such, it cannot be an independent navigator away from its cellphone tower environment. I have been told that bonafide external GPS receivers may be available for both devices that plug into them and make them independent, but I believe you would be best served by acquiring a real handheld marine GPS navigator unit. They aren't expensive, and they are capable, reliable worldwide navigators. Preload your critical waypoins into it (as I have for crossing the Columbia River Bar) and toss it in a drawer on your boat. Then when all else fails, you have a true GPS back-up pre-armed with the waypoints you want at that critical time.

The standard iPad will not work, you need the more expensive version that gets data via cell phone technology. The GPS is in the cell phone chip which provides data when you're not in wireless range. You have to enable the cell phone chip for the GPS to work and I've found that it sucks up a lot of current when it's searching for a cell phone signal. I've paid for 2 different iPad chartplotters and I think they are both useless for planning and barely functional for real time navigation. I just use them for viewing NOAA charts. One of them is so stupid that it does not allow you to preload all the NOAA charts. It will load a chart via wireless data download on an "as needed" basis. If you have sailed out of cell phone range then you're screwed because it cannot get the next chart. If you want a good independent chartplotter then download OpenCP and install it in a laptop. It's free, works very well, and uses NOAA charts. You can get a USB GPS to work with OpenCP and any laptop for about $35.

As a side note, if you're looking for security in case all electrical fails, you might consider how you store your handheld electronics. A direct lighting hit can kill all unprotected electronics, even hand held devices that are battery powered and turned off. The internal circuit board will act as an antenna and the electrical field will blow transistors. The only secure protection I know of is to either wrap your backup electronics in aluminum foil or store them in the oven or some other metal box. A full metal enclosure creates a Faraday Cage which will protect your bacup handheld against EM pulses.

[QUOTE=LCBrandt;13673]In spite of what Apple sales people and marketing literature tell you, the iPhone does NOT have an embedded GPS. It uses a pseudo-GPS, a 'GPS-wanna-be', probably triangulation from various cellphone towers. As such, it cannot be an independent navigator away from its cellphone tower environment. I have been told that bonafide external GPS receivers may be available for both devices that plug into them and make them independent, but I believe you would be best served by acquiring a real handheld marine GPS navigator unit.[/QUOTE]

This is wrong since the introduction of the iPhone 3G in 2008. I've used my iPhone as a GPS receiver with +/- 5-10M accuracy in remote regions of the Andes and Rockies, where I guarantee you the nearest cell phone tower was more than 100 km away and I received absolutely perfect GPS reception which included altitude and position (later uploaded to Google Earth for a neat record of my hikes).

In fact, if you have the latest iPhone 4S, it will do (most) GPS receivers one better: since the iPhone is truly designed to be sold worldwide as one piece of hardware, it supports GLONASS, the Sov...er, Russian version of GPS, which will give you another bunch of satellites to improve your lock.

Cool apps I've used in the field include:
[url]http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/gps-kit/id287909017?mt=8[/url] and
[url]http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/motionx-gps/id299949744?mt=8[/url]

Both have a neat feature that shows you accuracy of the GPS lock (usually 30 feet or so in the open), and will also show you the number of GPS satellites locked on to.

The iPad is a bit more complicated. The Wi-Fi only version of the iPad does *not* include independent GPS reception, while the 3G/4G version does. You don't need to be within range of a cell network to use GPS, but the cell / GPS receivers share a chip and an antenna.

[QUOTE=neilroach;13677]Well, while posting that reply, new info arrives. We have the 4S and I guess I'll look into that nav. app. Thanks again.[/QUOTE]

Sure. Note that the two apps I sent aren't "marine" nav apps or chartplotters per se. They function as my backup only because I have a good paper chart with lat / long info, and can plot my position on the paper chart based on the GPS readout.

There *are* apparently some good Marine nav apps. Practical Sailor reviewed them in 2010, if you're a subscriber you can get the article here:

[url]http://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/36_4/features/iPhone-Nav-Apps_590...

More recently they reviewed iPad nav apps, many of which have a corresponding mini-version for the iPhone (no subscription required for this one):

[url]http://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/37_15/features/ipad_nav_apps_1073...

EDIT:

Actually, that's part of a three-part series:

[url]http://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/37_14/features/ipad_nav_apps_1071...

I'm seriously considering picking up iNavX ($50 for iPhone AND iPad)... If you do, let me know what you think.

Some time ago, in Dutton's or Chapman's, they wrote something like this:

[I][COLOR="Blue"]"If you have multiple sources of navigational information, there is the possibility that you will be overwhelmed with information. You then have too many choices and may become confused. It's like the the "old days" where if you were uncertain about a harbor entrance when coming in from sea, you deliberately offset your course to come one side of the other, so when you got to the beach you knew which way to turn."[/COLOR][/I]

I must admit to being a Neanderthal, 'cuz I only have two GPSs, with one without a map on it, just lat/lon. A Garmin GPSMap 76 Cx and an old Magellan Blazer.

Gosh, HOW can I possibly cope without an iPhone or i-some-thing? Some use cell towers, some use satellites. Oh gee, oh my. :rolleyes:

Guys, I really think you're overdoing it.

If your i-Thing doesn't agree with four of your five backup GPSs, whaddaya gonna do?

I'm sure each of you has proper paper charts, so I won't go there.

Sorry for the rant, but...geeze...:eek:

That said, all you have to do is look around on the web, like Sailnet and [url]www.Catalinaowners.com[/url] and cruisersforum, and [url]www.ybw.com[/url] (UK), and find out what the rest of the world is doing. The amount of repetitive questions is mind-boggling.

I know this is a great Forum, and love the information I've learned from it.

But this navigation stuff is nothing new.

Please, please, please: Don't OVERDO it when it comes to simple navigation. I believe the idea should be to get your head OUTSIDE THE BOAT and not keep looking at screens.

We have a low dodger, and NO big screens in front of us. We can see out the front (bow) of the boat all the time. If I wanted a pinball machine, I'd go to an arcade. :confused:

Sorry again, but I just came back from putting the RIGHT metric bolt on my alternator, starting the engine on the reserve bank, and completing the ends of my new jib sheets, after coffee with Sam about his electrical system.

Thanks for listening...:)

Stu

PS - I have a laptop with charting software which I've used with my BU-353 GPS dongle. I know some of this stuff.

PPS - Now for weather, ya can't beat 'em.

Stu, I think you're misunderstanding. This isn't about a fourth or fifth backup. This is about the first or second backup. Why spend $150 on a basic GPS for backup if I've already got a phone that has the functionality built in?

I have one chartplotter. It's the (10-year-old) Raymarine system that came with my boat. I also have a compete set of paper charts, which I use often, and a mirror compass, which gets used sometimes. Prior to this boat I'd never sailed anything that had inbuilt electronics, and usually stuck to paper charts.

The iPhone is the backup. While I'd be interested in the chart plotting software offered, I'm much more interested in using it as an old-school GPS that outputs latitude and longitude which I can then apply to a paper chart.

My non-boating navigation experience has been on 20-30 day extended backpacking treks through pretty much the middle of nowhere, and solar charging gear / batteries are expensive and/or heavy. The only time we pull out a GPS is in an emergency...

At least for me, this isn't about having the newest, fanciest equipment. It's about saving money by making full use of the equipment I already have. :-)

So, then it's simple. Navionics app. And I don't even have a smart phone, I picked it up from reading scads of these type of discussions on the internet tubie webbie thingie. :)

Seriously, while a very valid question, I guess my point was that this is not a boat-specific question, and has widespread interest in anything from caravaning, camping, automobile travel and boating navigation.

If I had one of those darned smart phones, and wanted to learn about what nav appls were available, I'd probably figure out how to use Google, if I could learn to type on tho0se key(boards)(pads)? :eek:

Good luck, and hope you find something that works for you.

Please, let us know what it is, then the geeks can "discuss" the pros & cons of the coding. :D

PS - Those links I suggested earlier will give you a MUCH wider amount of input on the subject than you'd get here, so consider giving them a try, and go back a few pages or use the search engines to pull up earlier discussions. "What's the best navigational app?" would be a start. :)

PPS Here's one: [url]http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f121/[/url]

PPPS Here's another one: [url]http://www.sailnet.com/forums/electronics/88011-best-coastal-usa-hand-gp...

David,

Thanks for setting me straight. So the iPhone 3G on my hip actually HAS a GPS/Glonass built into it? On my next blue water voyage I'll check that out, and probably drop it overboard in the process. If it goes overboard it will join another smartphone (2007) and a digital camera (2005) already resting on the bottom, waiting for archeologists from another planet to discover 73,000 years from now.

Neil, the question is and remains extremely valid. I am just suggesting you widen your sphere of input, since this is a limited "audience" here and because I read so many boards, I wanted you to get a much wider variety of information. There's so much out there that it's mind-boggling. And you're right, it changes daily. It's kinda like the discussions of what's the best chartplotting software for your laptop. I asked on our forum and said that I don't want to get into the debate about whether or not laptops can work up on deck, I just wanted to know about the software that was available. Guess what happened? [url]http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5747.0.html[/url]

So, yes, eventually you'll have to make a decision. That's why I gave you the links to the other boards. While not as straightforward as Mac vs. PC (hee, hee), there truly are options out there. KISS and backups are very important.

Good luck in your decision making process.

You could also check out this if it works for you: [url]http://www.navimatics.com/[/url]

Neil, your question and the discussion is most welcome on the C36IA Forum.

Carry on, and I hope that we all can learn something from the discussion. The only bad question is the one not asked, as they used to say in the classroom. Steve Frost and I are the moderators of this forum, and even we supposed technical gurus learn all-the-time. Please keep asking the questions and prompting the discussion because I don't want to stop learning.

[QUOTE=LCBrandt;13686]David,

Thanks for setting me straight. So the iPhone 3G on my hip actually HAS a GPS/Glonass built into it? On my next blue water voyage I'll check that out, and probably drop it overboard in the process. If it goes overboard it will join another smartphone (2007) and a digital camera (2005) already resting on the bottom, waiting for archeologists from another planet to discover 73,000 years from now.[/QUOTE]

So the iPhone 3G on your hip has true GPS but not GLONASS -- only the 4S has that. It's difficult to keep track, I know :-) Wikipedia has a good comparison: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone#Model_comparison[/url]. Look at the "features" line to see when GPS support was added, in the 3G -- note that "assisted GPS" just means that the phone *can* use cell towers to speed up position lock, but can also function fine as a standalone GPS; that might have been the initial confusion.

And hey, Neil Roach, if you happen to get either the Navionics or the iNavX app for your iPhone / iPad and wouldn't mind a visit from a neighbor over on E-dock, I'd love to check it out and hear what you think about it before I go ahead and pick one to buy.

Neil, here's some of our experiences:

[url]http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6965.0.html[/url]

You might also be interested in this one, too

[url]http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,7011.0.html[/url]

Sorry for the rant before, again, but I did say I was a Neanderthal, right? ;):rolleyes:

Lots of us frequent both the C34 and C36 Forums. Crossbreeding has never been so much fun! :)

[QUOTE=FlyMeAway;13701]So the iPhone 3G on your hip has true GPS but not GLONASS -- only the 4S has that. It's difficult to keep track, I know :-) Wikipedia has a good comparison: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone#Model_comparison[/url]. Look at the "features" line to see when GPS support was added, in the 3G -- note that "assisted GPS" just means that the phone *can* use cell towers to speed up position lock, but can also function fine as a standalone GPS; that might have been the initial confusion.

And hey, Neil Roach, if you happen to get either the Navionics or the iNavX app for your iPhone / iPad and wouldn't mind a visit from a neighbor over on E-dock, I'd love to check it out and hear what you think about it before I go ahead and pick one to buy.[/QUOTE]

I'm on "I" dock and would be happy to show you the INavX set up on my Ipad. Come by on a Thursday before the DSS and I'll let you take it out for a test.

Bruce
Evergreen Dreams
I-37, Elliott Bay.

PS: I counted 5 C36s out on the last race. How about we all meet on "N" dock before one of the Thursday night events?