Crack in Keel

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William Matley's picture
William Matley
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Posts: 167
Crack in Keel

I would like the members of this group to look at these photographs of my keel. Photo number 1 is a picture of the leading edge of the keel taken at haul out 2010. Photo number 2 is the same area of the keel, taken at haul out this year.

The pattern of the crack is unchanged but it appears to be slightly larger. I believe this years picture differs from last years with photo number one under compression on the cradle, the larger gap photo number 2 was taken while hanging from the travellift.

I never noticed the crack until 4 years ago when I had the hull power blasted to remove all of the old bottom paint. I believe the crack was there, under the many layers of paint.

The keel leading edge shows no sign of impact.

Thoughts?

Bill Matley

Bill Matley
Duncan Bay Boat Club
Cheboygan, Michigan
Lakes Huron, Michigan,
Canadian North Channel
"Spirit of Aloha" Hull #1252

mutualfun's picture
mutualfun
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Posts: 454

Bill looking at that crack I would dare say that the very forward keel bolt is not torqued to the proper spec. You will have to pull up your flooring forward of the mast. Then you wilk see a panel you need to remove and the bolt will be under that. I had the same thing a few years ago and that is what I found.

Randy Sherwood
Mutualfun 1990 # 1057
T/R W/K M35a
Home. Charlotte, Mi.
Boat. St Augustine,Fl.

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TomSoko
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Posts: 978

Bill,
Randy may be right, but I'd be willing to bet that the crack is just cosmetic. Generally known as the Catalina Smile (or the Hunter Smile, or the Beneteau Smile), it could be the result of a couple of different things. The most probable cause is that your yard didn't block the keel properly. Most of the weight of the boat and keel should rest on the forward edge of the keel, not the aft edge. This requires adding very beefy timber under the forward edge of the keel, as the aft edge extends lower. You can't just plop the boat down on level ground and assume everything is OK. This problem is compounded by the desire of most to have some "bow up" attitude to have rain and weather drain aft.
The cure is to scrape out and slightly widen the crack (a can opener works well), make sure the keel bolts are to spec (105 ft-lbs), and then fill the crack with thickened epoxy. Sand, cover with bottom paint and you are done. Hope this helps.
PS-I'm pretty sure these are the exact instructions you would receive from the factory if you were to ask.

Tom Sokoloski
C36/375IA Past Commodore
Noank, CT

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LCBrandt
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Posts: 1282

Well...you're not gonna like my opinion, not because it isn't good for your wallet, but because it doesn't match either of the ones presented so far. Consensus is a good thing, and we don't have it here.

1. I think it is purely cosmetic. I believe that when Catalina (or its vendor) poured the lead, there was some minor irregularity in the mold. The keel is poured lead, with the keel bolts extending deep within the interior.

2. I disagree with Tom that this is the 'Catalina smile'. That 'crack' that Tom has described is up where the keel joins the fiberglass hull. And further, the 'smile' is not a crack in the lead, but rather in the 'bondo' filler that fairs the lead keel into the fiberglass hull.

3. I disagree with Bill that this is a crack on the keel caused by the forward keel bolt being too loose. Again, for a faultline to develop in the lead keel at this location, especially givin the lead keel's mass at this location, is extremely unlikely, perhaps even impossible. The keel at this location must be, what, at least 10 inches thick. I just cannot envision a crack (like what would occur in a concrete sidewalk) appearing in a malleable material like lead, of this mass, at this location. IMHO, even if you dropped our 6,000 lb keel from a two-story hoist onto a concrete slab, you would not see a crack like this appear.

4. Disclaimer: I'm no engineer.

If it were my boat, I would - as they say in New Jersey - 'fuhgeddaboudit'.

Larry Brandt
S/V High Flight #2109
Pacific Northwest, PDX-based
2002 C-36 mkII SR/FK M35B
 

mutualfun's picture
mutualfun
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Posts: 454

Reason I mentioned the forward keel bolt being loose is. 3 years ago I had a similar crack that ran back about 6 inches. Once the boat was in the craddle I checked all the keel bolts and I found the 2 most forward bolts under torqued. Looking at my notes. The most forward one I got over 1 1/2 turns before I reached 105ft lbs. Then in the spring I refaired the crack. It has now had 2 winters in the cradle and over 10,000 km and no crack has appeared. The process worked for me is all I can say. I guess that is what is good about a fourm like this is hard to tell the ability of each person. Good luck !

Randy Sherwood
Mutualfun 1990 # 1057
T/R W/K M35a
Home. Charlotte, Mi.
Boat. St Augustine,Fl.

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stu jackson c34
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[I][COLOR="Blue"]2. I disagree with Tom that this is the 'Catalina smile'. That 'crack' that Tom has described is up where the keel joins the fiberglass hull. And further, the 'smile' is not a crack in the lead, but rather in the 'bondo' filler that fairs the lead keel into the fiberglass hull.[/COLOR][/I]

Larry,

I was under the impression that that was exactly what the Catalina Smile is. :)

Stu Jackson, C34IA Secretary, C34 #224, 1986, SR/FK, M25 engine, Rocna 10 (22#)

gmackey
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Posts: 46

Is the crack on both sides of the keel or just the port side?

Is the crack approximately following the hull/keel interface or not?

I would guess that answering these two questions would support or eliminate some of the foregoing suggestions.

Cheers,
Graham

Graham Mackey
SV Nostromo
1989 C36 908
Tall Rig/Wing Keel
Toronto, Canada

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GaryB
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Posts: 577

I believe all for the most part saying the same thing. I attached a primitive sketch that may or may not show what you are seeing in your pictures.

The crack appears to be at about the depth of your bilge. It may be longer on one side vs. the other. I had this on my Cat 30 and repaired it years ago, and it does come back , perhaps it is caused by impproper blocking. The 30 I had was stored in the cradle that was made to ship it from California. Point is that it will more than likely occur with time anyway. Now if by chance you hit something it will more than likely show up sooner. I repaired it once on GWTW (Cat 36) and it seems to be "grinning" at me again.

Note bilge is formed in bottom of mold and floor of bilge on the exterior of the hull is where the keel is attached.

Keel is seperate lead component which has bolts anchored in the lead when poured in the form.

Hull is mounted to keel and there may be a compression board between the top of the keel and the bottom of the bilge.
Because the top of the keel may be a slightly smaller footprint than the bottom of the bilge there will need to be some fairing filler (Bondo) to make the smooth transition you see. Hit something or as Tom said improper blocking and you will have a "witness" crack form. This is the "Catalina Smile" referred to.

Now in the North where we can have a hard freeze water can be absorbed somewhat and ice form. Stone cutters in the old days would drill holes, pour in water, let it freeze and "whola" a piece of granite was seperated from Mother Earth.

More than likely you will not have a huge issue here and the crack is cosmetic. It would be a good idea though to make sure your keel bolts are torqued as suggested and epoxy and fair the crack as suggested.

Gary Bain
S/V "Gone With The Wind"
Catalina 36', Hull #: 1056, Year: 1990, Engine: M-35
Standard Rig
Moored: Boothbay Harbor, Maine
Home: Auburn, Maine

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deepdive's picture
deepdive
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Posts: 26

I had a cat 25, she had the same smile, same place. I now have a 36, she has the same smile. My friend has a cat 36 one year newer than mine, she has the same smile in the same location. Another cat 36 in the boat yard at our marina " newer than ours"has a smile in the same exact location. Probably would be harder to find one without a smile? Clean it out good,fill the crack with 5200, prime and bottom coat and it will most likely be there next time you pull her? Would not hurt to check the torque for peace of mind?

David Edwards
Bridgeton, NC
C36 MK I hull # 11
S/V Starting Over

William Matley's picture
William Matley
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Posts: 167

Thanks to everyone for your thoughts and suggestions.

I had considered each of your suggestions and I agree with all of them!

I think I should check the keel bolt torque.
I believe the Catalina 36 tool box, has the wrench so Ill plan to get it and give it a go this spring.
I removed the floor to look at the bolt and to refinish that section of flooring, before I left the boat for the winter.
I'm all set, just need the wrench and socket.

I also believe I can put in some filler and cover the blemish, and I'll do that next spring.

Then I'll do as "LCBrant" say's 'fuhgeddaboudit'.

I also have read in another thread, some discussion about winterizing your boat for the winter. I did this job last Monday, my engine took 1 1/2 gal of pink antifreeze that I bought at Walmart for less than $8.00.

To do the whole job, took me less than 5 minutes.

You do the math and make your own decision!

( I forgot to mention the crack is on both sides, about the same size) Looks like the smile in Gary's drawing.

Bill Matley
Duncan Bay Boat Club
Cheboygan, Michigan
Lakes Huron, Michigan,
Canadian North Channel
"Spirit of Aloha" Hull #1252

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