I, too, have always heard that you should never 'have' to put the furling line on a winch. I think the point is that you could break something by applying too much force, instead of correcting the reason for the extra strain.

Having said that, I have had a few occasions where it took everything I had to furl the sail (135% Genoa) by hand. I have since stepped up to 3/8 inch dia double-braid (with the core removed for the first 25 feet so that it can wind on the the drum OK) and that extra bit of diameter helps a bit over the original 5/16 dia line.

How does it furl when not under load? I have a 2002 and it started getting hard to furl as I started to furl it.

Came to find that the Schaefer gear did not have a way to flush the bearings in the lower drum, which is easy to soak with salt water. By this spring, after sitting all winter, the lower drum was completly frozen up. If yours is stiff in turning at the dock just using your hands, this may be the start of that problem, though with a2004 that shouldn't be such of an issue. Scheafer knows about this problem and if this is what you have and you call them, they'll know right way what the issue is.

The redesigned drum has flush holes in it. Unfurl your jib when its calm and see if you have holes in the lower drum. If you do, start flushing it with fresh water, if you don't, keep it in mind as you may need a new lower drum in the near future.

I am not sure where your boat is located but in San Francisco this is a daily event with winds at 25+ knots. I have a 2002 tall rig so I would assume they are run very closely. I am able to use the primary wench but I have to backtrack to get to it.

I would suggest going downwind and blanketing the jib if you're in this much wind. The sheets do need some pressure on them to keep them from flying off and killing someone. If you're downwind, it's pretty easy to pull it in - but with that being said, anytime you have that much wind, it's going to be more difficult with either sail.

One other suggestion, you may want to invest in a smaller jib if you're sailing in high winds a lot. You'll be able to keep your sail shape a lot better and you won't risk having it unfurl as you try to get it in.

[QUOTE=SailorJackson;8534]
The boat is rigged with the furling line going directly to a Herreshoff type cleat. It's more difficult to let a line slip a bit on the Herreshoff type and, with all the wind, it got away from the crew member and we had the whole 150 out, flapping in 24 knot winds.
SV Jacqui Marie[/QUOTE]

I agree that it is hard to roll in the genoa in high winds, Here are a couple of ideas for this situation.

1st - I would head downwind and crank up the engine in forward gear to take some of the pressure off of the genoa.

2nd - I added a ratchet block (on one of my aft stanchion bases) as the last furling line block. When taking in the furling line, I switch the block to the "ratchet" mode. This lets me pause and the block "holds" the line until I am ready to pull the next bit of furling line in. When letting out the genoa, I switch to the block back to "free spool" mode.

I must be doing it wrong, because instead of heading DOWNwind to furl the jib, I point closer UPwind to relieve pressure on the sail (not dead upwind or it will flap back & forth). The only concession I make to heavier winds is that I put on sailing gloves because the thin line cuts into my hand otherwise. I agree that I wouldn't want to winch the furler. I've had stuck lines which froze the furler on several occasions necessitating a run up forward to clear it. Had I just kept on winching, something would have broken I'm sure.

Mike

I have a rope clutch on a car that rides on the end of the outboard track. Garhauer part #11-11-OC. Like the ratcheting block, this holds the line as I'm furling it, which helps when the wind is up. Also allows me to easily furl to 130, 90 or whatever size I want.

I've had to use the winch from time to time but care is definitely needed. I got caught in a terrible squall, 60+ knots with the 150 up. I couldn't furl by hand and started cranking away with the sheet winch. Like a fool, I didn't look up when it got hard to crank; had a halyard wrap and broke the forestay. :eek: That made things even more exciting running the spinnaker halyard to a bow cleat to keep the mast up. Plus cost me $1000 to get the forestay replaced.

So, if you have to use the winch to furl the sail, make SURE that it's just the wind making it too hard to furl by hand.

Not one of my finer moments.

I did the same thing that Duane did; I changed the line to 3/8 inch diameter double-braid line to make it to make it easier on the hands. Then I removed the core for the first several yards so that it reels up nicely on the drum. I too have recently experienced a significant drag when I am dousing the jib. I think I may have to replace the roller drum.

For those of you who have had to replace this part how much money (approx) am I looking at to replace it?

From what I read, it seems that it is easy to replace. Is this true?

[QUOTE=dejavu;8543]I must be doing it wrong, because instead of heading DOWNwind to furl the jib, I point closer UPwind to relieve pressure on the sail (not dead upwind or it will flap back & forth).
Mike[/QUOTE]

Mike.

I wouldn't say you are doing it wrong. In lighter winds I usually furl the jib on a close reach as this gives some pressure on the jib and results in a tight roll. In stronger winds (15knots+) I go to a run to relieve the pressure. I'm more concerned about getting the genoa in and not as worried about a tight roll.

If I remember correctly, most furler manufacturers recommend not to use a winch. If you don't have the cleaning holes, I think that would be the first step. It may turn easily unloaded, but forces increase quickly with when bad bearings are loaded. You are new to the boat, I think with time you will find that the stern perch seats are the best in the house. It looks like adding another winch will make using your port seat more difficult. Another thought, is there clearance from all the fixed objects (stern rail, bimini supports, etc) to actually use another winch?

[QUOTE=SailorJackson;8551]OK, so let's review....

First: Lots of stories about really awful things that happen when the massive power of the primary winch is used against some jam, wrap, or binding situation.

Second: Lots of opinions about what direction or tactic to use to take enough pressure off the furling line to allow bringing it it.

I'd suggest that, as long as you're assured there is no binding or jam, the force to roll in the jib is little different than the force that is on the furler under steady conditions. Furthermore, if you furl in using a very small self-tailing winch instead of the massive primary, you're more likely to become aware of binding or wrap conditions.

We're all thinking of just bringing in the sail, but what about adjusting? If you're traveling on a steady course and the wind increases or decreases, should we really have to change course just to let in or let out a bit of sail? With the furling line on a cleat, it's pretty difficult to go from 70% to 80%, but if the furling line is on a small winch, letting a bit slip is easy. The situation is even worse if you're trying to go from 80% to 70%. If you want to keep maximum sail up but the wind steadly increases over a 45 minute period, changing course just to bring in 10% of the sail once every 10 minutes seems like a lot of messing around. With a small winch on the furler, it would seem easy to let a little sheet out, then pull a little furling line in, once every 10 minutes or so.

Seems to me that a foot block combined with a very small self tailing winch would be a really nice combination for the furling line, as long as it wasn't abused.

G. Jackson[/QUOTE]

I agree 100%. I think the manufacturers recommend against a winch to protect against idiots like me doing damage. But there's just too high a load on the furler, under many conditions, to adjust or furl the sail without a winch. A small winch would do the trick.

I saw what looks to me to be a perfect solution, probably in Sail magazine. It was a very low profile winch, almost like a ratcheting turning block, that 'grabs' the line in a single turn. This would allow the winch to be mounted closer to the edge of the deck leaving clearance for the handle under the lifeline, and still allow seating on the cockpit coaming. Plus not have the power of the primary. This seems ideal for my requirements.

However, I can't locate the winch. I think it was a German product, but don't recall the brand. Does anyone else know of this winch?

G. Jackson,

You make your point well and I think you could do as you state and be fine. I agree that making adjustments in reefing can get tricky, with the potential for losing control and having the sail unfurl to maximum when you really don't want that.

Personally, I think I still have a bit to learn about furling my foresail under load. On a few occasions I have let my sheets flog to where they smacked the expensive stratoglass dodger and left permanent abrasion marks, which makes the admiral very displeased.

Thanks for starting this interesting thread.

Glen...

The drum is about $135 as I remember.

It's not hard to replace, particularly if you have a keel mounted mast (since you have to release the headstay, it's nice to know the mast wont fall) however first, if you are in the water you have a number of screws and semi-small parts to handle, very easy to drop, so it's just better to do it on the hard. And second, if the screws holding the drum cover aparatus in place are frozen in, then you can have a problem.

We have an ex-rigger in the yard and I paid him $75 to do the job with me... my involvement involved handing him the new part when he was ready to install it, but I don't like doing jobs that, if I make a mistake, can have really bad consequences.

Chuck,

Can you tell us what model furler you have and if you replaced the drum will you also give your feedback regarding the "before and after" performance comparison. The expense of $135 part plus an hour or two of labor seems like a small expense if it was a big improvement.

Thanks Chuck for that tidbit of info on the approx cost. I'll bet that the unit that we all have is the model 2100. I'm certain that I can do it myself. It doesn't soundl like a difficult project whatsoever.

Thanks again!

Every furler manufacturer except ProFurl advises to not use a winch for furling. While some may think this is because of potential damage to the drum, my read is that it is because of the halyard restrainer that all furlers, except ProFurl, require. If the halyard restrainer gets knocked off kilter, you will get a wrap and have the problems discussed earlier in this thread with your forestay. Why is ProFurl different? They don't have or require a jib halyard restrainer. There's what I call "The Darth Vader" halyard lead at the top of the assembly.

Yes, I have a ProFurl, and it's one of the reasons I bought it.

I sail on windy SF Bay with 85 jib during the summer and a 110 during the less windy winter season. I still have to work at furling the jib. We have a small block at the base of a pulpit stanchion, so we can get a good fairlead to be able to use muscle power to furl the jib. I have only once had to use a winch. I've considered a ratchet block, and will most likely do that when the block needs to be replaced.

I caution you to NOT use a winch if you don't have a ProFurl furler.

I fully understand the difficulties in getting a 155 jib furled. Maybe that's why I don't have one, but understand, also, why many of you who normally sail in light winds need them, and have trouble when it pipes up.

Suggest you reread your manuals. Could be tips & tricks in there for furling ideas. Mine does.

I should clarify one thing about my halyard wrap in my prior post. It was not the jib halyard that wrapped it was the spinnaker halyard. I've kept it tied off to the forward end of the port side cabin grab rail for years, but for some reason, decided to run it down to the bow pulpit; or maybe forgot to move it after winter storage, not sure. In any event, that is what wrapped around the sail and stay and resulted in the forestay snapping.

My boat has a factory installed halyard guide on the mast well below the masthead, that keeps the halyard at an angle to the upper swivel on the furler. I've never had a wrap with this setup; the only way I can envision it happening, would be if the halyard was released from the rope clutch and was very loose.

I've only used the winch when there was no other option to get the sail under control. The day I broke the forestay, I'll admit, not proudly, to being in a panic. I was single handed, had been caught by surprise by probably the worst squall I've encountered in 25+ years on the Bay and had a tug pushing a barge directly toward me, running outside the channel. He was not making my life easy. There was enough wind that I saw at least a half dozen boats blown ashore, including my boss' 35' power boat that lost an engine. No way to furl that sail by hand.

In hindsight, I don't know what I was thinking; the winch became very difficult to crank, it should have been clear that something was wrong. Whenever I've used the winch since, it's been slow steady cranking in high gear only; if you have to switch to low, something's wrong.!

I'm not arguing anyone's point of view or advice, but in my experience, there have been situations where, no matter what point of sail, blanketing with the main, etc., I just cannot get that 150 furled without a winch. I'm not familiar with them or their design, but there are hydraulic furlers on the market that could potentially have some of the same issues, if the halyard or sail should jam.

Sometimes I've wondered how that diminutive Scottish female singlehander (name escapes me) manages the jib on the giant boats she races around the globe, when big ol' 225 lb. me can't furl mine...!!

Furlers always raise interesting discussions. Are you sure you have your forestay tensioned appropirately? Slackness in the foil can by itself create problems in furling the jib even under light loads. Seems like this is not likely to be your issue since you state the furling seems to work efficiently at the dock. I am a complete convert to furling the jib on a very broad reach where the jib is protected by the main. After much trial and error I seldom do it any other way except in very light winds. Try this and get back to us as to whether this makes a difference. If not then the drum is the next place to look as many other learned captains have pointed out.

Rick Verbeek
Lakeshore Yacht Clulb
Toronto, Ontario
Southpaws 1999 C36 #1763

Stephen...

I'm pretty sure I have the 2100. It has a big label on the drum, I just haven't looked recently.

The "before & after" is 1000%. It was 95% locked up before (I could barely turn it by hand)... now I can spin it freely by hand.

As I said before, easy job IF the screws fastening the drum together break easily (they should have been assembled with the anti-Lock Tite product) and if you don't drop parts in the water.

By the way, part of my problem was one of the screws (there are either 3 or 4) in my old drum was missing... must have worked its way out at some point and who ever gets down on theforedeck to look at that. This allowed salt water to enter the drum. You might want to check that on yours.

One thing that seems to help is to make sure that you let the jib furling line out slowly as you pull out the jib. This will prevent the line from wraping around itself in the spool and causing it to "lock up" when you are pulling it back in.