Glad you solved your issue. I am going on 6 years since I installed my monitor (xantrek) and I have no complaints about it's performance, seems to work like a charm!

Here's where this came from: [url]http://www.c36ia.com/forums/showthread.php?t=594&page=2[/url]

John, I'm really glad you figured it out.

Stu

Glad you solved it, John, and glad you posted the end result.

[QUOTE=John Reimann;5887]...filled the line with Rydlime and let it sit for 24 hours. Problem solved.

Next, I'm thinking of running it through the toilet to clean out the hoses and the tank itself. That stuff is pretty good.[/QUOTE]

You may be interested in this:

[url]http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5738.0.html[/url]

Ok, John, I'm feeling kinda dumb. I'm not quite understanding which battery cable you are referring to that should be routed from the shunt.
Please describe for me exactly since I have the same problem with the amps showing negative #'s build up with the AC hooked up at the dock? Since I'm not a competent wire man, I would appreciate the description.
If you would rather email please do so at [email]jawsbit@embarqmail.com[/email].
Thanks

Bill

In case it helps:

Electricity has to travel in a complete circuit in order to do any work. Mentally trace the path of the electricity from one side of the source (battery pos) to the device and then back to the battery neg. If the path does not go through the shunt, then its current (amperage) will not be measured.

[QUOTE=deising;5940]Mentally trace the path of the electricity... [/QUOTE]

That's a good start. What I recommend is DRAWING a wiring diagram. I'm sure John would have found his solution much earlier had he employed the discipline to do so. And for those who don't know about electricity, it really helps to draw it out, you are sure to learn something from the effort.

[QUOTE=deising;5940]Mentally trace the path of the electricity... [/QUOTE]

That's a good start. What I recommend is DRAWING a wiring diagram. I'm sure John would have found his solution to his Link 1000 operation much earlier had he employed the discipline to do so. And for those who don't know about electricity, it really helps to draw it out, you are sure to learn something from the effort.

Excellent point, Stu.

[QUOTE=John Reimann;5947]As I constantly have to explain to my German-born wife, reading directions first is unAmerican![/QUOTE]

And here all along I thought it was just a GUY thing!:):):)

John,

Thanks for the explaination. I'll check my wiring routing and see if that's my problem too. Might even draw it, however following wiring on my boat is a real chore. The PO's added equipment and the installers ran wiring which ever way was the easiest. The wiring behind my breaker panel is pretty jumbled, and then underneath behind the chart table bulkhead it's a rat's nest.

Bill

A suggestion. As you're sorting through your wiring behind the panel, mark each wire as you identify it. This will save you lots of grief later if something doesn't work. You can get wire labels at Radio Shack, Lowes or Home Depot. Another option is a label maker. I have one that I load up with shiny paper tape, print it out, then wrap it around the wire and back onto itself.

I installed an Ample Power high capacity alternator, charging system, monitor and separate starting battery with echo charging circuit. Probably did it in 2000. Lots of wires..! I marked everything, and I'm sure glad I did, when I look in there 10 years later. I also needed to move the cable from the charger to go through the shunt in order to measure it's output.

John,

I have checked, and do not have any extra wires to the negative battery posts. I have discovered this though. When I reset the amp hrs on the Link 2000 prior to going out and inturn use some, and then turn the engine on because of calm winds, or just to get back to the dock, the amp hours going back into the system do count down on my Link 2000. However the amp hrs while on the charger at the dock do not count back down, and they mount up because I leave the refrigerator on while at dock so I can have a cold , no cool, one when I'm trying how to figure all this mess out. I'm not giving up yet, but am glad to have discovered that the engine amps in will count down since I'll be able to determine how the battery charge is while out and about. We have a couple of 3-4 night outings planned in the next month, and I'll be monitoring closely. I definitely do not want to have to sail back to the dock like I had to a couple of years ago. Thanks for your input.

Bill
Washington, NC

Bill, have you traced the ground from your charger? It sounds like it is not connected to the shunt and therefore when it is on the amps are not being seen by the Link unit.

Bill,
I agree with Bud. It sounds like your charger is connected to either some random ground, or the wrong side of the shunt. Either way, the Link sees the alternator (good) and does not see the charger (bad).

What "may" be happening is Battery Acceptance. When batteries are nearly full, i.e., between th 85% and 100% SOC, they don't accept much charge, regardless of the charging source. This could be what's happening. And it could also be that the LOAD that's on the system is MORE than what is being accepted: batteries are only taking 2 amps, but your fridge is on drawing 5 amps. Do the math.

[I]We've had some discussions about battery acceptance (search on "acceptance") in the past. I thought it might be helpful to describe just what happens, step-by-step when charging after, say, a simple day sail.

The battery acceptance drops off the ability to recharge, to an incredibly low rate of charge as the bank gets fuller and nearest to full. Many times, now based on my Link 2000 experiences, it takes almost overnight to fully recharge a bank.

What goes OUT of your house bank becomes easy to learn from the Energy Budget previously discussed and posted. It's what goes back IN that most people are missing, and relates to the state of charge of your house bank in a very direct manner.

What I've seen, for example is this, from our Link 2000:

--- Return from a day sail, bank is down 15 amp hours, plug into shore power with our 75 amp charger, batteries will only ACCEPT 15 amps (360 AH house bank, they're pretty fully charged if only 15 ah down)

--- Most people will then assume that it will take an hour to replace the 15 amp hours at 15 amps of charge

--- NOT!

--- As the batteries absorb that 15 amp charge, they get fuller

--- The charge RATE goes down to 10 amps after 15 or 20 minutes and the bank is now down to 10 amp hours down

--- Now, it should only take another hour to charge those minus 10 amp hours at 10 amps -- wrong assumption again; we're now up to an hour and twenty minutes to fully charge, right?

--- NOT again, because this keeps recurring

That's why a full charge takes a LOT longer that most people expect.

What goes OUT is easy, what goes BACK takes MUCH, MUCH longer. That last 15% to 20% takes a long time because of the REALITY of battery acceptance.

Please believe me, folks, because I see this all the time now that I have the Link 200 installed and working.

Please note that this true with alternators as well as shorepower chargers. Battery acceptance usually "rules" the charging regimen, so even with 100A alternators or shorepower chargers in excess of 40 A, the battery acceptance will determine the amount of charge that can go back into a house bank, usually around a max of 50A for a 400 ah bank. And it "tapers off" as the bank gets fuller as noted above.

This is why people say the BEST investment for un-knowledgeable and knowledgeable skippers alike is to buy a battery monitor FIRST. Wish I did, because I'd been chronically UNDERCHARGING my house bank, even after all the spouting I do here and on other forums!

Please, believe it!

For a parallel discussion of how much comes OUT, please see the Energy Budget topic, here: [/I] [url]http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3976.0.html[/url]

On Caprice I have a Freedom 1000 Inverter/Charger which was put in by a PO in 1994 and has worked well. I went away for a three day cruise and the house batteries were not charging by the altonator or shore power at the Marina.

I came home on the starting battery which is not hooked up to the Inverter/Charger. I bought a new Magnum2000 inverter/charger complete with a new remote control. But, then decided to have a boat electricion install it because I was having second thoughts about my ability to mess with the instal. The technition came over and started poking around the wire like I did. Way underneath the seat in front the battery box he found a lose wire that I did not find. Thightened it up and everything is now working properly.

Monday I havd to bring the $1500 worth of Inverter/Charger and remote back for a refund which they told me they would do.

Job complete for $50. I am now a happy camper or should I say sailor.

John
On most sailboats the bildge pump does not get its electric power through the battery swithch. It goes directly from the battery distribution point, bypassing the battery switch, to the bildge pump while docked, causing a small drain on your batteries.

I am not at all familiar with the Link systems as I have an Ample power battery monitor/charging system. But the manual tells you that the battery monitor can become 'confused' when the batteries are on a shore based charger for long periods of time. They recommend discharging the batteries to about 50%, then completing a full charging cycle with the alternator. This 'resets' it's internal settings so it can accurately report the % charge, amps used, etc., and properly control the charge rate of the alternator.

I don't know if this has anything whatever to do with your issue, but thought I'd throw it out there in case it's of value.

Gary & Mike,

The way the Link works is that, IF wired properly, ALL of the current is supposed to flow through the negative side of the DC power wiring (i.e., also known as "through the shunt"). This includes the bilge pump, since even if wired directly to the house bank, the current has to flow through the black ground (negative) wiring. Mine's wired that way but when i turn it on I read the amp draw on my Link 2000.

I don't know if John has completed his wiring diagram yet.

My system is wired so the battery charger goes through the shunt. The shunt was added along with the rest of the Ample power system, and I had to move the cable from the charger to the shunt, so the system would 'see' it. The monitor does report the positive amps when the charger is on, or the engine is running.

The shunt is a very, very accurately-calibrated low-ohm resistor.

All the Link is doing is monitoring the *voltage* and the *direction of the current* across this resistor (the shunt). The shunt's resistance is very small because some very high current runs through it, and therefore you want the most voltage to get to the using circuits rather than be absorbed by the Link's shunt.

Well, kinda, Larry. But for our uses, the shunt should simply be thought of as a current measuring device, even though it's "doing its thing" with voltage.

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunt_%28electrical%29[/url]

Scroll down some to see a photo and an explanation.

To avoid complications and to simplify: It's like the analogy often used between water and electricity. The shunt measures the flow (amps). Voltage is pressure.

This is why ALL the load has to go through the shunt, or else it's not measuring everything that is either being used or being input.

Battery negative post --- negative terminal (or power post or NDP) --- shunt --- engine.

How's that wiring diagram comin', John?:)

Exactly as I said...an accurately-measured resistor. The device that measures the current is the Link, which is a very sensitive voltmeter. Charge or discharge is computed by the Link simply by determining which end of the shunt has the higher (milli-)voltage level.

From your Wikipedia reference...

In this case the shunt, a manganin resistor of accurately known resistance, is placed in series with the load so that all of the current to be measured will flow through it. The voltage drop across the shunt is proportional to the current flowing through it and since its resistance is known, a millivoltmeter connected across the shunt can be scaled to directly display the current value.

Yes, Larry, you're exactly correct. What I was getting at is that most of our skippers aren't engineers, and have a ton of confusion about a shunt. What you're describing is HOW it works, which is using voltage.

What I'm trying to explain is WHAT IT DOES which is to, in the big picture, measure and display current.

Many skippers are still confused about the two and the first thing they usually do when learning about electricity is to figure out the differences between voltage and amperage.

The shunt MEASURES the current flow. How it does it is by using voltage, and proportionally increasing a small amount of measurement to a larger amount that the instrument displays, in amps.

Just wantin' to keep it simple.

So, does the negative lead from my Freedom inverter/charger need to go throught the shunt then? I don't know if it does now or not. If so,then will that disrupt the charging cycle or inverter process? If routed through the shunt, will I have to then route a seperate negative cable back to the negative side of the battery, or to the battery switch? I just know that the alternator will add amps back that the Link 2000 counts, but the charger does not, and the negative amps build ( I do leave the fridge on ) while hooked up at the dock.
This has been a great thread, and I'm learning alot, but haven't figured out how things should be yet. Thanks for all your patience with my ineptitude.

Bill

All negatives on the DC side have to go through the shunt. If any don't, the energy produced or consumed by that device will not be shown by the meter.

The best way to do this is to install a hefty bus bar (like 300 amp or more) and run all negatives to it then one big line from it to the shunt, then another big line from the shunt to the negative battery terminals. I used 2/0 cable for these connections.

Bud's right, but...

See Reply #23, here: [url]http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4623.15.html[/url]

My Freedom Inverter Charger negative wire is run to the NDP (negative distribution post - which is a Blue Seas Power Post Plus). I put this in in 1998, well before I installed the Link 2000 and the shunt.

The monster 2/0 wire from the Freedom goes to the NDP. The shunt is connected to the NDP. The NDP goes to the engine ground.

The Freedom charging is correctly read on the Link 2000.

The wire from the shunt to the NDP is not 2/0, it's only #4 (maybe I upped it to a #2 more recently), one of the two paralleled #4 grounds, as noted on the diagram.

The system works just fine.

The reason it works is that you have to follow the flow of electrons. The charger's output power goes to the house bank PDP, through the battery bank, then through the negative of the house bank to the shunt, to the NDP and to the engine ground. The shunt reads it all, since there's nowhere else for the electrons to flow. Each of the individual banks goes to the shunt's individual #1 and #2 posts and then on to the NDP.

This wiring scheme is shown on the Link 2000 manual wiring diagram on the Xantrex website.

It's hard, if not impossible, to run a 2/0 wire from the Freedom to that shunt. The NDP is a lot easier and a lot easier to run a smaller wire to the shunt. A shorter smaller wire will have minimum impact on the overall voltage drop, of course it should be sized for the load, but based on the very, very short length.

NOTE: I need to check that diagram because I recall that I ran the 2/0 Freedom positive to the PDP and not to the battery itself. I'll update the diagram if I find it's wrong, but it really doesn't change the concept, since the PDP and the battery + post are the same electrically, only different ends of a very short wire. :)

[wiring link 2000]

[QUOTE=billta;6181] I just know that the alternator will add amps back that the Link 2000 counts, but the charger does not, and the negative amps build ( I do leave the fridge on ) while hooked up at the dock. [/QUOTE]

Bill,

It's time for the Gotcha Algorithm link again: [url]http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4922.0.html[/url]

The issue is that the Link 2000 is reading NET current, so if your house bank is almost full, there is very little acceptance in the battery bank - means it can't take more charge. Sometime the amount IN is less than the amount OUT.

The example in the link offered above is a good one: charging has tapered off to incoming 4 A. Fridge kicks on drawing 5 A. Link 2000 show negative 1 amp, no charging.

Turn your fridge off and see what happens.

And never ever consider running a negative wire to your battery switch, ever.

[QUOTE=stu jackson c34;6189]NOTE: I need to check that diagram because I recall that I ran the 2/0 Freedom positive to the PDP and not to the battery itself. I'll update the diagram if I find it's wrong, but it really doesn't change the concept, since the PDP and the battery + post are the same electrically, only different ends of a very short wire. :)
[wiring link 2000][/QUOTE]

OK, I did.

And the answer is::::::

The 2/0 inverter/charger wire is run directly TO the house bank + terminal. A #2 wire runs to the PDP, just like the diagram.

It was nice to check, my son, Morgan, and I, sailed to the Lightbucket 11 miles out from the Golden Gate Bridge starting from Horseshoe Cove, and home today.

All electrical systems GO.